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Kamakura kanrei in Muromachi Era? confusion

 
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wiranobu
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:08 am    Post subject: Kamakura kanrei in Muromachi Era? confusion Reply with quote
According to this amazing link: http://www.premodernjapanresources.com/Sengoku%20Azuchi%20Momoyama%20Era.html

In the Kantō region immediately before the outbreak of the Ōnin War, the office of the Kamakura Kubō had divided into two factions, one led by the son of Ashikaga Mochiuji, Ashikaga Shigeuji (足利成氏, 1434-1497) known as the Koga Kubō (古河公方), while the other was led by a brother of the Shōgun Yoshimasa, Ashikaga Masatomo (政知, 1435-1491) who led the Horigoe Kubō (堀越公方)...

1.Isn't Kamakura Shogunate ended in 1333 after Kenmu Restoration, how come there are still offices called Kamakura Kubo/Kanto Kubo, or even Kanto Kanrei long after that?

2.Does this mean there are 2 kanreis? Kyoto kanrei and Kanto kanrei?

thanks
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There were indeed two kanrei - one in Kyoto, one in Kamakura, and this continued after the fall of the Kamakura shogunate.

Apologies for linking to Wikipedia, but this page explains the basics of the situation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanrei
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Kamakura kanrei in Muromachi Era? confusion Reply with quote
wiranobu wrote:
1.Isn't Kamakura Shogunate ended in 1333 after Kenmu Restoration, how come there are still offices called Kamakura Kubo/Kanto Kubo, or even Kanto Kanrei long after that?


Because the Muromachi Shogunate started in 1336? The Kamakura Shogunate was located in the Kanto--it wouldn't need a deputy to manage things in the Kanto. The Muromachi Shogunate was located in Kyoto, and therefore needed a deputy to maintain control in the Kanto.

Quote:
2.Does this mean there are 2 kanreis? Kyoto kanrei and Kanto kanrei?

thanks


Yes--"Kanrei" is simply a title. Don't get too hung up on it being the same thing. The Kyoto Kanrei was the Deputy Shogun, in essence, in the Kyoto-based Muromachi bakufu. As he was located in the same place as the actual Shogun, he functioned more as a "Prime Minister" type of official. The Kanto Kanrei was in the Kanto, and acted more as an appointed governor. It wouldn't make sense to call him the "Prime Minister of the Kanto", but that's a problem of translation into English. There was also the Kyushu Tandai, which did the same thing as the Kanto Kanrei, essentially, except for Kyushu. Why was he the "Tandai" and the Kanto governor the "Kanrei" or "Kubo"? Don't know, but sounds like a linguistics major could turn that into a 250 page thesis.
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Check out this thread. We had a great discussion with lots of good input and research on the topic. No need to go to Wikipedia when all you ever wanted to know about kanrei & kubo is here in an older thread. Very Happy
http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=1841&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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wiranobu
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you, now it all makes more sense

Please fix this if any of my argument of my final paper is wrong
1. In late 15th to late 16th century, medieval/premodern Japan there are civil warfares between clans, called Sengoku Jidai
2. The conflicts could be dated back to Onin war (or further, but I'll stick with Onin war)
3. The leader of these samurai clans are powerful men called daimyos who led armies of thousands of poor ashigarus
4. These clans govern semi-independent, province sized "states"
5. There is however a central government led by the Ashikaga shogun in Kyoto court, but most other daimyo would rather mind their own businesses than mingle with court politics
6. In the old Kamakura/Kanto area the Ashikaga shogun still exert its power, but relegated them through close daimyos like the Uesugi clan who gets Kanto Kanrei
7. Ashikaga's policy is to juggle power between Shiba, Hosokawa, and Hatakeyama for the position of Kyoto kanrei.
8. Onin war happened because Yamana clan is jealous of Hosokawa's power and taking advantage in the middle of internal power crisis in Shiba and Hatakeyama, fearing Hosokawa will have extreme power
9. After the war local samurai rose to prominence to become sengoku daimyo, good examples are Hojo Souun, Uesugi Kenshin, and good old Oda Nobunaga
10. Portuguese came with european style firearms/guns, grabbed the attentions of power hungry sengoku daimyos
11. Ambitious Sengoku daimyos like Takeda Shingen and Oda Nobunaga used the firearms, some with poor results, some with great efficiency
12. Firearms took more and more centerstage as time progresses
13. Then came the Edo jidai and the Great Peace (sort of if the rebellions not counted as war) and firearms is reduced to less more than hunting aid

sorry if the last arguments are getting OOT
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