O UMA JIRUSHI - help appreciated

[marder]

If anyone can identify these I would be most grateful


[img]

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3156/image005ze.jpg
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/3639/image002cw.jpg
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8886/image010j.jpg

[/img]

[kitsuno]

[evalerio]

[lordameth]

Judging from both kanji and scribbly kana, I would agree with evalerio that the third one looks to be Matsudaira, Tanba no kami.

Interesting how it breaks up 松 into 木公, which of course vertically looks even less like the combined character.

Not sure what the '29' right after Tanba no kami refers to. Is that just something within the scroll, like "item #29 in this list"?
_________________
My blog on Japanese art & history: http://chaari.wordpress.com

紫水晶殿 - The Amethyst Lord

[lordameth]

As for the second one, the kanji would seem to confirm evalerio's suggestion that it is Ieyasu's. The kanji read 権現様 (Gongen-sama), Ieyasu's posthumous name as a Shinto deity, i.e. Tôshô-dai-gongen, chief deity of Tôshôgû.

I feel like the first kana under that, though, is 'shi' (し or 志), not 'ko' or 'go' (ご), making it read Shinken or Shingen, not Gongen. But, I could be wrong.
_________________
My blog on Japanese art & history: http://chaari.wordpress.com

紫水晶殿 - The Amethyst Lord

[nagaeyari]

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3156/image005ze.jpg

Characters above: Sakai Awa no Kami
Squiggly characters below: Sakai Awa no Kami

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/3639/image002cw.jpg

(From right)
Characters: Gongensama
Squigglies: Gongensama
When Ieyasu was deified as Toushou Daigongen 東照大権現, one name he was known as was "gongensama."

The banner on the left reads "O-uma-jirushi."

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8886/image010j.jpg

Characters: Matsudaira Tanba no Kami
Squigglies: Same

*Didn't notice Ameth's post, oops!

[nagaeyari]

[Akaguma]

[lordameth]

[marder]

Many thanks for the replies.

The six scrolls were put into the Heraldry in the Sengoku thread, which I got from image-shack
I have then re-cut them into sets and identified what I can from Evalerio's sets, Sourcebook descriptions and from other material I have. The three I posted are the only 3 on scroll 1 I have yet to identify.
I only uploaded the first part with the Kanji next, the full sets appear below

I have accepted the Ieyasu one.

The Sakai is an issue, I can find no reference to a Sakai with the Awa no Kami title of that period

I have sets for:
Ietsugu (1564 – 1619), Tadakatsu (1587 – 1622 son of Shigetada), Tadayo (1590 – 1614 son of ?) and Yamashiro no Kami (son of Tadayo)

No sets for:
Tadayuki (1559 – 1636), Tadayo (1572 – 1636 son of Shigetada), Shigetada (d 1615 Kwatchi no Kami), Tadakatsu (1594 – 1647 son of Ietsugu), Tadakiyo (1626 – 1686 Uta no Kami) and Tadatoshi (1562 – 1627) – all who fall in the correct period and who I think are among the likely candidates.
The sorrel-mon on banners seems to be a junior-branch thing as the main branch appear to use red sun-discs.

In a similar vein, I can find no suitable Matsudaira with the Tanba no Kami title.
I have identified the sets for:
Matsudaira Katsuharu, Matsudaira (Ochi) Kiyotake, Matsudaira Masatsuna, Matsudaira (Yuki) Naomasa, Matsudaira (Yuki) Naomoto, Matsudaira (Okochi) Nobutsuna, Matsudaira (Ogasawara) Shigenao, Matsudaira (Okudaira) Tadaaki, Matsudaira (Fujii) Tadakuni, Matsudaira (Yuki) Tadamasa, Matsudaira (Yuki) Tadanao, Matsudaira (Tokugawa) Tadayoshi, Matsudaira (Katahara) Yasunobu, Matsudaira (Matsui) Yasushige and Matsudaira (Sakakibara) Tadatsugu.

No sets for:
Matsudaira Katsutoshi, Matsudaira (Okochi) Masatsuna (poss. same person as Matsudaira Masatsuna?), Matsudaira Mitsuyuki, Matsudaira (Fujii) Nobukazu (used fan design on standards?), Matsudaira Narihisa, Matsudaira Sadafusa, Matsudaira Sadayuki, Matsudaira Shigenari, Matsudaira (Toda) Tadateru, Matsudaira (Tokugawa) Yasunaga – all of whom fall in the correct period.

On scroll 2 I now only have 1 set unidentified. That is shown below.

Out of all 6 scrolls I have identified all except 30-40 and most of these are single 3D types. Hopefully, together, we can put some names to these. Once I get to the end I am more than willing to make the full named sets available to any in the SA community who would like them.

Sakai Awa no Kami



Matsudaira Tanba no Kami



???

[/img]

[Akaguma]

The last one is Matsudaira Oki-no-Kami 松平隱歧守

隱 is ancient writing for 隠

and 歧 is a kind of variant of 岐
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福は内、鬼も内、悪魔は外！

[marder]

Akaguma

Thanks for that!!!


The next two are from scroll 3





Thanks in anticipation

[Akaguma]

Inagaki Settsu-no-Kami 稲垣 攝 (摂) 津守

Honda Inaba-no-Kami 本多 因幡守
_________________
福は内、鬼も内、悪魔は外！

[marder]

Akaguma

Thanks for that. I have provisionally identified them as Inagaki Shigetsuna and Honda Toshinaga.

There are six on the next one, any help would be appreciated, from any source.

[Akaguma]

Mizoguchi Hôki-no-Kami 溝口 伯耆守
Makino Denzô 牧野 傳（伝）蔵
Matsudaira Hizen-no-Kami 松平 肥前守
Itakura Mondo 板倉 主水
Matsudaira Kai-no-Kami 松平 甲斐守
Hayashi Tanba-no-Kami 林 丹波守
_________________
福は内、鬼も内、悪魔は外！

[marder]

Akaguma once again many thanks
I have provisionally identified 3 of those - Mizoguchi Nobunao, Makino Narisato and Matsudaira (Hisamitsu) Sadatsuna and I think the Itakura may be Katsushige.

Two more groups (the last from scroll 3 and onto scroll 4)




Thanks in anticipation

[evalerio]

Marder,

Thank you for this thread.

You already have this, but it shows we are on the same track. This is what my WIP files have:

[marder]

Evalerio

I wondered why I had found no Abe, I believe the one description I have (Turnbull of course) says red disc on black for the O uma jirushi, it turns out to be white.


Many thanks for your input

I have about another 20 to go then all are named, at least to court rank title, (but that is not as many as I feared). As stated earlier once done I will make the file freely available to the SA community, I don't believe in hoarding info for myself.

I have for Mizoguchi Hidekatsu



But I make no claims to being right here. But my description for Nobunao states a single ring and Turnbull's description could be both/either.

[Akaguma]

[evalerio]

The one identified as Hidetsugu-ko appears in several of my heraldry books for Toyotomi Hidetsugu.

[marder]

Matsudaira Geki 松平 外記
Nobutada-kô (lord) 信忠 公
Hidetsugu-kô 秀次 公
Bizen Saishô 備前 宰相
Arima Hyôbu 有馬 兵部
Abe Bitchû-no-Kami 阿部 備中守[/quote]

Once again my thanks

I have no idea on Matsudaira Geki, Oda Nobutada, Toyotomi (Miyoshi) Hidetsugu [as id'd by Evalerio], no idea about Bizen Saisho (although Ukita are ringing bells for some reason), Arima ? [of the Settsu family] and Abe Masatsugu

Can anyone put a name to any of the following??
Arima Hyôbu
Bizen Saishô
Hayashi Tanba no Kami
Itakura Mondo
Matsudaira Geki
Matsudaira Hizen no Kami
Matsudaira Kai no Kami
Matsudaira Tanba no Kami
Sakai Awa no Kami
Sakai Yamashiro no Kami

Below are the last ones

[lordameth]

1) Oda Izumo no kami
2) Honda Shimousa no kami
3) Kinoshita Uemondayû
4) not sure
5) Shimazu uma-no-kami (Shimazu master of the horses?)
6) Sugihara Hakusha no kami
7) Katô Dewa no kami
8) Inaba Awaji no kami
9) Inaba Hikoroku
10) Inoue Kawachi no kami
11) Hori Taisaku (no kami?) - Taisaku seems to be a personal name, or perhaps some other kind of title; it's not a province name
12) Kawajiri Hizen no kami
13) Akechi Hyûga no kami　(=Akechi Mitsuhide?)
14) Takeda Shingen
15) Katô Higo no kami
16) Hasegawa Shikibu
17) Sasa Kuranosuke (=Sasa Narimasa)
18) Oda Sanshichi　(=Oda Nobutaka)
19) Shibata Shuri

Hope that's helpful. I don't really know that much about the individuals of this period (who was kami of which provinces at which time), so I'm just transcribing the names, only venturing to ID a few...
_________________
My blog on Japanese art & history: http://chaari.wordpress.com

紫水晶殿 - The Amethyst Lord

[Akaguma]

Oda Izumo-no-Kami 織田 出雲守
Honda Shimôsa-no-Kami 本田 下総守
Ichiyanagi Kenmotsu 一柳監物
Kinoshita Emondayû 木下 右衞門太夫
Katô Dewa-no-Kami 加藤 出羽守
Sugihara Hôki-no-Kami 杦（杉）原 伯耆守
Shimazu Uma-no-Kami 嶋（島）津 右馬頭
Inaba Hikoroku 稲葉 彦六
Inaba Awaji-no-Kami 稲葉 淡路守
Hori Mimasaka-no-Kami 堀 美作守
Inoue Kawachi-no-Kami 井上 河内守
Katô Higo-no-Kami 加藤 肥後守
Takeda Shingen 武田信玄
Akechi Hyûga-no-Kami 明智日向守
Kawajiri Hizen-no-Kami 河㞍（川尻）肥前守
Shibata Shuri 柴田 修理
Oda Sanshichi 織田 三七
Sasa Kura-no-Suke 佐々 内蔵佐
Hasegawa Shikibu 長谷川 式部

Edit : Oops ! I took too long to write my post ! Lordameth was way faster !
_________________
福は内、鬼も内、悪魔は外！

[evalerio]

What's in my WIP files:
This was a while back, I don't remember where I got the info at the moment. It might be from one of the RG heraldry books.

Honda from Satsuma province.

Described as being a different individual from Inaba Sadamichi's son Inaba Norimichi.


I think some of the above came from an RG book where the names were written differently, and these are what I was able to translate.

In heraldry books the banners for:
Kato Higo-no-kami.....This is Kato Kiyomasa's uma-jirushi, sashimono and nobori.
Akechi Hyuga-no-Kami.....This is the Uma-jirushi of Akechi Mitsuhide, double slashed flags.
Shibata Shuri.....The gohei uma-jirushi of Shibata Katsuie.
Kawajiri Hizen-no-kami.....Kawajiri Hidetaka, one of Oda Nobunaga's generals. This is his uma-jirushi of a gold 'hat' slung from a pole.
Hasegawa Shikibu.....Hasegawa Ujikazu, tried to join Ishida Mitsunari in 1600, entered Sawayama castle.

[lordameth]