Register :: Log in :: Profile   


Help with bio of Shinano warlords

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Samurai History - Kamakura to Sengoku
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
evalerio
Kashin
Kashin
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:23 pm    Post subject: Help with bio of Shinano warlords Reply with quote
I am attempting to illustrate the Takeda's conquest of Shinano with reconstructing the heraldry of as many of the Shinano warlords as possible, and battle scenes and composition of the armies involved.

In regards to Terje Solum's description of Takeda Nobutora's last campaign in book 2:

Did Takeda Nobutora's coalition army actually include the Suwa and Murakami Yoshikiyo?

Does anyone know the head of the Shigeno clan during Nobutora and Shingen's time? Who was in command of Onoyama castle in 1541?

At the battle of Unnodaira Plain on May 14th 1541, did the the Nezu, Yazawa, and Mochizuki fight alongside Unno Munetsuna against the Takeda?

Does anyone have a brief bio (birth and death dates, battle record) for:
Unno Munetsuna
Nezu Motonao
Yazawa Tsunayori
Head of the Mochizuki at 1541

Any help is greatly appreciated.


Last edited by evalerio on Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bethetsu
Hida no Kami
Hida no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1352
Location: Center of Musashi

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
According to the J-Wikipedia, for the battle of Unno-daira 海野平
Takeda Nobuteru and the coalition army of Shinano men such as Muraskami Yoshikiyo and Suwa Yorishige invaded Chiisagata and fought against Unno Munetsuna and others of the Shigeno clan (the Unno, Nezu, Mochizuki, Sanada, etc.)

武田信虎と、村上義清や諏訪頼重など武田と結んだ信濃国人の連合軍が小県郡へ侵攻し、小県を領する海野棟綱ら滋野一族(海野氏、禰津氏、望月氏、真田氏など)との間で行われた。
(The grammar seems a bit strange.)

The Mochizuki head may have been Masayori 望月昌頼, lord of Mochizuki Castle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
evalerio
Kashin
Kashin
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you, Bethetsu.

I was wondering whether the Shigeno clan referred to a specific family, or whether the Unno, Nezu, Mochizuki, Sanada together made up the Shigeno clan.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
marder
Page
Page
Member for 4 years



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 289
Location: West Yorkshire, England

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Emmanuel
Have just a few bits:

1. Unno Munetsuna had at least three sons -
Sanada Yukitaka, Yasawa Yoritsuna, Tokita Toshitsuna


2. Nezu Motonao (Motonaro - same person?)
Motonaro's daughter married Takeda Shingen

3. Yazawa Tsunayori
Yasawa Yoritsuna 矢沢頼綱
aka Uno Yoritsuna
aka Gennosuke
aka Yasawa Tsunayori 矢沢綱頼
1518 - 1597
Satsuma no Kami
Son of Uno Munetsuna
Son – Yasawa Yorisada
The younger brother of Sanada Yukitaka and noted for his bravery in battle. Initially serving the Takeda, he moved into the Sanada camp when Sanada Masayuki, his nephew, drew away from the Takeda.
Held Numata Castle in 1580 and later defended it against the Hôjô.

His son Yorisada served with the Eastern Army at Osaka in 1614, 1615.


4. Mochizuki
Descended from the Shigeno, their power had wained by the Muromachi and they vanished during the Sengoku
During the Sengoku headship passed to Takeda Nobumasa (1551 - 1575, killed at Nagashino), the son of Takeda Nobushige and Shingen's nephew. His son, Mochizuki Masayori (望月昌頼) was killed in 1582 and the Mochizuki line came to an end.
This is probably much later than what you are looking for.

5. According to Turnbull's Kawanakajima p26
The Suwa, Ogasawara and Murakami joined with the Kiso to oppose Shingen's advance towards Lake Suwa in 1542. As this is later I would presume they were not yet defeated by the Takeda and would not have been part of Nobutora's force a few years earlier.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
evalerio
Kashin
Kashin
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Marder,

You are right I am looking for a Mochizuki name before a Takeda family member took over leadership of the clan.

Terje Solum's book described the alliance of the Suwa and the Takeda during the May 1541 campaign. The previous year in December 9th Suwa Yorishige visited his father-in-law Nobutora. Nobutora repaid the courtesy and visited Suwa on Dec 19th.

The book mentions Murakami Yoshikiyo as being allied to Takeda Nobutora during the 1541 campaign, but was not clear whether Murakami troops were fighting alongside the Takeda.

Samuraiwiki described Yoshikiyo with the Suwa and the Takeda taking Iiyama castle. Is Iiyama and Onoyama the same castle?

Below is a WIP speculative reconstruction of the Unno, Yazawa and Sanada heraldry. While trying to reconstruct the Unno flags, for inspiration, I looked at the Sanada heraldry at the time of the siege of Osaka castle when the Sanada had returned to their former territories. I speculated that the Sanada's later flags might be what their original heraldry looked like before they joined the Takeda.
Below is what the Unno heraldry might have looked like with the red and white flags representing Yukitaka.

I had a pleasant shock in one episode of the 2007 series 'Furin Kazan'. Some of the Sanada flags in Shinano before they joined the Takeda were depicted exactly as I speculated.

Below are the speculative uma-jirushi for the Nezu (left) and the Mochizuki (right). The Mochizuki flag can be seen in the Kawanakajima Festivals.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
evalerio
Kashin
Kashin
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Could someone help identify this photo?

http://www2.harimaya.com/sengoku/bukemon/mon_img/DSCF21802.jpg

Could someone translate what is written on the hata-jirushi? It is also written at the very top center in the photo.

I got the photo here:

http://www2.harimaya.com/sengoku/bukemon/bk_unno.html

Thank you in advance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lugbar
Merchant
Merchant
Member for 3 years



Joined: 29 Nov 2010
Posts: 95
Location: France

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
White Bird Shrine - Shiratori Jinja
白鳥神社(しらとりじんじゃ)

The shrine is located in the city of Tômi in Nagano prefecture. 長野県東御市
It is related to the Sanada family, and originally the Unnô 海野氏(うんのうじ)family

Tômi is very close to Ueda !

http://www.php.co.jp/blog/rekishi/2010/06/post_167.html
http://yanagisawayasuko2.ti-da.net/d2010-05.html
http://kusabue.jp/unno1.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
evalerio
Kashin
Kashin
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you, Bertrand.

Below on the left is a speculative Unno sashimono inspired by the hata-jirushi in the White Bird Shrine. It looks very similar to the sashimono on the right, a sashimono for Anayama Baisetsu.

Baisetsu's heraldry at the Kawanakajima Festivals has changed through the years. From blue, dark blue, to yellow!

BUT, the Anayama sashimono on the right also appears on the life-size diorama showing Date Masamune fighting at Hitadori. My question: Did the Unno/Sanada join the coalition against Date Masamune at Hitadori?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
evalerio
Kashin
Kashin
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The search for the owner of that dark blue sashimono at Hitadori continues...

In Terje Solum's book:

After Oi Sadataka's rebellion was crushed by the Takeda in 1543, the Mochizuki, a vassal family of Oi Sadataka, refused to surrender. They were all executed by Shingen.

Is this the same Mochizuki that Nobumasa would come to lead? Is that the reason that I can't find a Mochizuki name prior to Nobumasa's leadership, because Shingen had them wiped out?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lugbar
Merchant
Merchant
Member for 3 years



Joined: 29 Nov 2010
Posts: 95
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
Thank you, Bertrand.
Below on the left is a speculative Unno sashimono inspired by the hata-jirushi in the White Bird Shrine. It looks very similar to the sashimono on the right, a sashimono for Anayama Baisetsu.

Baisetsu's heraldry at the Kawanakajima Festivals has changed through the years. From blue, dark blue, to yellow!


According to the Japanese text...
The Unnô family crest is the same as the Sanada, as the Sanada have inherited from them.
This Suhama crest is the crest of the family patron deity in the Shrine. Of course it is not impossible it was also used in the battlefield.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
evalerio
Kashin
Kashin
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Below is the complete set for Anayama Baisetsu which appears in Shingen-ko Matsuri. The sashimono also appears in the life-size diorama of the Battle of Hitadori, the sashimono is listed as unidentified in the book The Battles of Date Masamune for Killer Katana 2. I thought it could possibly be Unno/Sanada.


I found another trail. Let me know what you guys think.

The kamon is used by the Oda of Hitachi. Oda Ujiharu (1534 - 1602), warlord of Hitachi. He was defeated by the Satake in 1559 and in 1569 lost Oda Castle. Oda Ujiharu surrendered to the Satake in 1583 and sent his family as hostages.

At the Battle of Hitadori 1585, the Satake had a massive army (30,000?) in the coalition against Date Masamune. The Oda of Hitachi having submitted to the Satake, would be part of the Satake army at Hitadori.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
evalerio
Kashin
Kashin
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This in regards to Takato Castle. Combining information from SamuraiWiki and Terje Sollum's book:

On April 15, 1545 Takeda Shingen sent his vanguard divisions to attack Takato Castle. After a two-day battle Takato Yoritsugu and his surviving men fled, abandoning the castle to Shingen. Shingen occupied Takato Castle and turned it into the Takeda's main headquarters, giving the castle a new role and new masters.

Above is a summary from Sollum's book. Below is from SamuraiWiki:

Hoshino Masatoshi (1509-93)held Takato in Shinano and became a retainer of Takeda Shingen.

Was Hoshino Masatoshi the new master that Shingen installed in Takato Castle after he captured it from Takato Yoritsugu? If this is correct I will date Hoshino Masatoshi's taking over Takato in 1545.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Samurai History - Kamakura to Sengoku All times are GMT - 10 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Help the Samurai Archives




alexisRed v1.2 // Theme Created By: Andrew Charron // Samuraized By: Aaron Rister

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group