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Mon for Miyoshi Hidetsugu in 1584 and Yamazaki 1582
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:17 am    Post subject: Mon for Miyoshi Hidetsugu in 1584 and Yamazaki 1582 Reply with quote
Which mon would be in use by Miyoshi Hidetsugu (future Toyotomi Hidetsugu and Kanpaku) during the Komaki-Nagakute campaign in 1584 ?

1. His uncle's


2. The Miyoshi Mon


3. One of the following
a
b
Looks like the one Fukushima Masanori is using in Sekigahara.


Last edited by Lugbar on Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hello Bertrand,

I was waiting to see if someone had the answers for both of us. I am under the same impression you had regarding Atsuji Sadayuki. I haven't found heraldry for him...yet. Looking through the Anegawa screen, some figures that may represent him are without heraldry.

I haven't spent much time researching Hideyoshi's army yet, so this is what I currently have on Hidetsugu. The illustration below is WIP so some detail may change. I am assuming you have the final appearance of his heraldry as it appears in O Uma jirushi.

Banners illustrated in battle scenes in Dr. Turnbull's books are sometimes anachronistic. Final forms of heraldry appearing in an individual's early days. In Dr. Turnbull's latest book on Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Hidetsugu in Shikoku 1585 is illustrated with samurai using his uncle's sashimono (seen in the illustration below), and his personal red nobori is missing which may appear later in his career. O Uma jirushi does not have sashimono for Hidetsugu, which gives the impression that troops he led were temporarily 'given' to him by his uncle. I haven't come across illustration of Hidetsugu using the Miyoshi mon.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What an honor to receive a response from you, Evalerio !

I much admire your work and really wait for you publishing a book on them. It should sell well in Japan as well as in all Sengoku fan's circles.Very Happy

If you have had a look at "Sengoku Jidai:Kawanakajima" wargame, François, the designer had used quite some kamon and also did portray some ashigaru with sashimono.

I would like to push him to be as historical as possible in Sengoku Jidai II. And therefore I do some research on Yamazaki, Shizugatake, Nagakute and Sekigahara. Your work is of so great help !

Yamazaki is the difficult one, especially on the Akechi Mitsuhide side. So far I have identified only Akechi Mitsuhide, Ise Sadaoki and Matsuda Masachika's kamon.

I may post other questions over the coming weeks and will be thankful for any help.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for the kind words.

I've sorted out my files in planning several books with Akechi Mitsuhide at Honno-ji ending book #2 while the contingents in his army at Yamazaki begin book #3. I have most of the family crest of Mitsuhide's commanders, but I still have to verify them and their flags are still speculative at this stage.

WIP on Akechi Mitsuhide. One of the most attractive sets I have come across.


I will be updating Shibata Katsuie's army at Shizugatake on page 1 of the Samurai Heraldry Gallery thread.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
These remind me of an aloha shirt I have - blue with white flowers...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
Thank you for the kind words.

I've sorted out my files in planning several books with Akechi Mitsuhide at Honno-ji ending book #2 while the contingents in his army at Yamazaki begin book #3. I have most of the family crest of Mitsuhide's commanders, but I still have to verify them and their flags are still speculative at this stage.

WIP on Akechi Mitsuhide. One of the most attractive sets I have come across.


I will be updating Shibata Katsuie's army at Shizugatake on page 1 of the Samurai Heraldry Gallery thread.


Thanks for this view on Akechi's heraldry.

To be honest, originally I was only looking for the mon, but will try to convince François to get some sashimono and horo on the samurai and ashigaru he will draw. Best is if they are accurate.

To come back to the Akechi Army, that is what I have got so far.

Ise Sadaoki 伊勢貞興
Matsuda Masachika 松田政近
Akechi Mitsuhide 明智光秀 « Jubei » 十兵衛

and tentatively we may use Saitô Dôsan's mon for
Saitō « Uchikuranosuke » Toshimitsu 斎藤利三
But I am far from sure that they shared the same Mon. What would you use for him ?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The missing Mon in Yamazaki are for the following Akechi retainers, although some of them may share the Akechi mon (maybe the reason for the different colors?)

Fujita Yukimasa «Dengorō» 藤田行政

Akechi Shigetomo 明智茂朝 also known as Mizo’o Shōbei 溝尾勝兵衛

Atsuji Sadayuki 阿閉貞征

Shibata Katsusada 柴田勝定

Tsuda Nobuharu 津田信春

Suwa Morinao 諏訪盛直

Nabika Kamon 並河易家

Mimaki Kaneaki 御牧景重

And I hope that the following is correct but cannot be sure
Murakami Kyokuni 村上清国


On the Hideyoshi side, one retainer causes me headache in researches. He looks to be very famous one of the four heavenly gods of Hideyoshi, but as he was exiled and then pushed to suicide, history may have lost some track of him. Any idea ?
Mikoda Masaharu 神子田正治
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
These are WIP speculative banners. They are currently set aside as it will be awhile before I get to properly research them.

Abe Sadamasa. The mon is the Abe of Mikawa.

Matsuda Masachika. The 'X' mon is for the Matsuda of Sagami. This mon is for the Matsuda in Kyoto.

Saito Toshimitsu. This is probably the right mon for Saito. The 'wave' mon is for Saito Dosan.

Shibata Katsusada. The bird mon appears as the mon for different Shibata families, including those in Echigo.

Suwa Morinao. This is the mon for the Suwa of Shinano, as well as other Shinano families. The Shinano flags are often shown as white, so I've reversed the color here to black.

Tsuda Nobuharu. This is the mon I have for Tsuda.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks Evalerio bow , this is fantastic I'm not worthy

Some comments

- Abe Sadamasa: except in Turnbull, I have not seen so far the reading Abe for Atsuji Sadayuki/Atsuji Sadahide (at least in hiragana reading of his names). To be honest, I don't know why Turnbull uses the Abe reading (??) Are the Abe and the Atsuji related ?

- Matsuda Masachika: the mon I have used for the Matsuda is the one that appears in the following picture displayed at Yamazaki. Of course the artist may be wrong by using the X mon


There are several other mon represented, but the quality of the picture on internet is not good.

-Saitô Toshimitsu: it is known that he is from Mino and was a retainer of Saitô Dosan and also that he was not from the same family. You are probably right.

- Shibata Katsusada: the origins of this Shibata Katsusada are unclear. He is likely from Tanba and has family ties with Saito Toshimitsu. Again you are probably right if several Shibata families share the same crest.

- Suwa Morinao: the only thing I know about him is that he was a retainer of the shôgun before joining Akechi Mitsuhide. Well he has same name as the Shinano Suwa, so why would he not be related. Again you are probably right.

- Tsuda Nobuharu: this guy seems to be a real mistery, as there are several Tsuda in this battle and none seems to qualify 100% as being this Nobuharu. So great catch to have his mon !!


The 2 following retainers were among the 5 Ancients of Akechi Mitsuhide:
Fujita Yukimasa «Dengorō» 藤田行政
Akechi Shigetomo 明智茂朝 also known as Mizo’o Shōbei 溝尾勝兵

May it be reasonable to use the Akechi mon for them ?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Matsuda 'X' mon are seen in Bizen and Sagami, each with a slightly different 'X' version. It just seems that the Kyoto Matsuda was in the right place at the right time to get involved at Yamazaki. I would love to go over that Yamazaki mural(?) with a magnifying glass!

The Akechi set I posted earlier shows three nobori with three mon each. They may represent different 'divisions' of the Akechi army. The white mon on light blue is Mitsuhide's. Until we find something definite, using the black Akechi mon on light blue and the light blue Akechi mon on white for Fujita and Akechi Shigemoto seems reasonable.

I also have the same Murakami mon that you posted. Used by other families including a branch of the Takeda. I have Murakami Yoshikiyo with black mon on white. I illustrated the Yashiro with white mon on black. The Murakami in the Mori navy with white mon on red. I don't know yet which color was used by the Murakami in the Akechi army.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote




The Matsuda X kamon is also on a sashimono (or is it the nobori?) of a fleeing soldier in this picture of the Yamazaki battle.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for that larger pic. With that, I would hesitate to disagree with a Japanese artist so I would choose the X kamon for the Matsuda at Yamazaki.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lugbar wrote:
To be honest, I don't know why Turnbull uses the Abe reading (??) Are the Abe and the Atsuji related ?


Turnbull probably got his info from Rekishi Gunzou and they likely didn't have a kana reading for the name. 阿閉 can be read as either Abe(i) or Atsuji (among other things), so Turnbull picked the wrong one (likewise with reading 征 as Masa). It isn't a question of the Abe (which use different kanji) or the Atsuji being related, just a bad translation on Turnbull's part. 阿閉貞征 is translated as Atsuji Sadayuki in 戦国人名辞典 and every other source I looked at.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Lugbar wrote:
To be honest, I don't know why Turnbull uses the Abe reading (??) Are the Abe and the Atsuji related ?


Turnbull probably got his info from Rekishi Gunzou and they likely didn't have a kana reading for the name. 阿閉 can be read as either Abe(i) or Atsuji (among other things), so Turnbull picked the wrong one (likewise with reading 征 as Masa). It isn't a question of the Abe (which use different kanji) or the Atsuji being related, just a bad translation on Turnbull's part. 阿閉貞征 is translated as Atsuji Sadayuki in 戦国人名辞典 and every other source I looked at.


Thanks for your input Tatsunoshi. Cool

So we are back to square one and no heraldry is available for Atsuji Sadayuki, Sadahide
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quick question:
- Has someone got the Rekishi Gunzoo special about Akechi Mitsuhide ?
- Are there any indication about Akechi Mitsuhide's retainer band (Kashindan) in this magazine ?

Looks like I cannot purchase it from Japan as it is now on the second hand market and therefore impossible to order from outside Japan.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lugbar wrote:
Quick question:
- Has someone got the Rekishi Gunzoo special about Akechi Mitsuhide ?
- Are there any indication about Akechi Mitsuhide's retainer band (Kashindan) in this magazine ?


I've got it. I'll try to take a look in the next week or so.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Lugbar wrote:
Quick question:
- Has someone got the Rekishi Gunzoo special about Akechi Mitsuhide ?
- Are there any indication about Akechi Mitsuhide's retainer band (Kashindan) in this magazine ?


I've got it. I'll try to take a look in the next week or so.


Thanks Tatsunoshi.

1- does this magazine contain one of the Ebyôbu (folding screen painting) of the Yamazaki battle ?
2- does the magazine provide the kamon of the 1582 Akechi retainers ?
3- is there a full description of each of the 1582 Akechi retainers or allies ?

I have already some limited information for each, but much more limited than Hideyoshi's retainer of course.I am currently interested in the Yamazaki battle in particular. The following characters are of special interest.

津田信春 Tsuda Nobuharu
斎藤利三 Saitō « Uchikuranosuke » Toshimitsu
柴田勝定 Shibata Katsusada
阿閉貞征 Atsuji Sadayuki
明智茂朝 Akechi Shigetomo (his other name Mizoo Shôbei 溝尾勝兵衛)
明智光近 Akechi Mitsuchika (Toki Jurozaemon)
伊勢貞興 Ise Sadaoki
諏訪盛直 Suwa Morinao
御牧景重 Mimaki Kaneaki
松田政近 Matsuda Masachika
並河易家 Nabika Kamon
村上清国 Murakami Kyokuni
藤田行政 Fujita Yukimasa « Dengorō »

and these family members, not present at Yamzaki
明智秀満 Akechi "Samanosuke" Hidemitsu
明智光忠 Akechi Mitsutada
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Had a quick look-the mook has no heraldry whatsoever, has several pages of folding screens but no battle screens, and no real info on the Akechi retainers (as far as force composition, heraldry, etc). It's a great book on Mitsuhide, but not a whole lot of detailed info on battles he was involved in (of course, there isn't a whole lot of reliable info to draw on in the first place). Taking a quick look through a couple of Japanese battle dictionaries and other books (including screen books) doesn't turn up any personnel you don't already have listed. The couple of Japanese Yamazaki boardgames I have both use the Akechi mon for all his commanders and forces, so there's no help there either.

But I did spot a couple of errors on your list of Akechi forces. 御牧景重 is Mimaki Kageshige-the Mimaki commander at Yamazaki was indeed Mimaki Kaneaki, but the kanji for that is 御牧兼顕. Might be the same guy with a different name, but best to match the kanji with the name you're using.

Likewise, the Namikawa (not Nabika) commander at Yamazaki was also Namikawa Kamon, but the kanji for that is 並河掃部. 並河易家 might be the same guy with a different name (couldn't find that particular combination-易家 Yasuie?).

There's a few books on Yamazaki in Japanese, but they're long out of print and might be manga books.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for your time looking at the magazine, Tatsunoshi. I had hoped it to get more info on Yamazaki. It will save me tracking this book further for this purpose.

Thanks for the kanji check Cool
Tatsunoshi wrote:

The Namikawa (not Nabika) commander at Yamazaki was also Namikawa Kamon, but the kanji for that is 並河掃部. 並河易家 might be the same guy with a different name (couldn't find that particular combination-易家 Yasuie?).

Kanjis
Both 並河掃部 and 並河易家 are used on Yamazaki maps. Just found out that the Rekishi Gunzoo about "Hashiba Hideyoshi" and the one about "Hideyoshi Gundan" use the different kanjis. So both are the same person.

Thanks also for the reading check.
Effectively 並河易家 should read Namikawa Yasuie.
My Nabika Kamon reading comes directly from the Turnbull's maps as I did not find any proof of reading elsewhere. I will do some further research, but trust you are right.

Tatsunoshi wrote:

御牧景重 is Mimaki Kageshige-the Mimaki commander at Yamazaki was indeed Mimaki Kaneaki, but the kanji for that is 御牧兼顕. Might be the same guy with a different name, but best to match the kanji with the name you're using.


御牧景重 Mimaki Kageshige and 御牧兼顕 Mimaki Kaneaki are the same person. I must effectively use the right kanji for the right reading.

Thanks a lot bow


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Turnbull is especially sloppy in rendering name readings. Glad you were able to confirm that both sets were the same person-I hadn't thought about checking the info in my Hideyoshi books.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very interesting research on Namikawa/Nabika

並河 seems to have been translated by Namikawa in several websites about the battle (mainly the video game sites) But there are few romaji reading on the whole of internet.
I have also found the following reading 並河易家 Namikawa Ekiie.

Now there is a castle in the Kyoto area whose name is 並河 and you will find it under the name Nabika! 4 websites to confirm:
http://www.siromegu.com/castle/kyoto/nabika/nabika.htm
http://zyousai.sakura.ne.jp/mysite1/kameoka/nabika.html
http://www.hb.pei.jp/shiro/tanba/nabika-jyo/
http://www.geocities.jp/jyousekiroku/kinki/kyouto/tanba/kameoka.htm
The lord of the castle is 並河掃部介 Very Happy

Namikawa is the hiragana reading I have found in the rekishi gunzoo (#3) about "Hashiba Hideyoshi" and Nabika is the hiragana reading in the "Hideyoshi Gundan" Rekishi Gunzoo (#30) Very Happy I doubt it

Turnbull no doubt writes Nabika in the Osprey edition.

-----------
Some follow up.

In the city of Kameoka (Tanba), there is a shrine for the 並河 family. Kameoka is also the city of akechi Mitsuhide's castle of Kameyama.
This is the city where the Nabika castle is located, and the closest train station is Namikawa eki.

Well is this not an issue about old and recent reading ? If not, why would the ruins of the castle have kept the Nabika name until today ?
I would therefore stick to Nabika Kamon 並河掃部 Reading
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's listed as Namikawa in the Japanese general staff's 1890's account of the battle, along with an 1880's map book I have of Japanese battlefields. Since Nabika is the more common reading of 並河, I would lean towards Namikawa since these sources must have had a reason to take a much less common reading.

lugbar wrote:
Well is this not an issue about old and recent reading ?


Well, no-it's an issue about variant readings for a name. There's no way of telling which is actually older, especially judged on just two places-if we knew for sure the Namikawa/Nabika owned the castle (maybe your source will tell us if they did, in which case it's a done deal), that would be a different story. Namikawa Station could have been named after an old shrine, maybe it was built on the ruins of the Namikawa mansion, or named after Namikawa Hanzo, the first man in the city to be killed in WWII (all hypothetical examples). With two pronunciations in the same town, who can say? But who knows, it might just be that no one knows for sure how the name was pronounced and like us, they're just guessing-this is actually pretty common for minor samurai families that didn't make it to the Edo period. From what I recall, even a member of Oda Nobunaga's immediate family has his name in question. And even for our little group of Akechi retainers, my father-in-law has told me that there's disagreement over Suwa Morinao's name, with a different rendering of Suwa Moritada. He thinks Motitada, I think Morinao since it follows the logic of 'must have used the less common reading for a reason'. Then again, he knows 100 times more than I do.

Anyhow, on to a few more things...

Murakami Kyokuni should be Murakami Kiyokuni

From a conversation with my esteemed FIL...

Fujita Yukimasa (who Turnbull has rendered as Toda Yukimasa) was ostensibly part of the Akechi main force, but appears to have led a detachment of about 500 men during the battle on the Akechi right.

There's also a Horio Shoubei/Shoubee (堀尾庄兵衛) who commanded a detachment (a few hundred) from Ise's forces. He operated to Ise's left and supposedly was one of the better combatants on the Akechi side of things. Other than him, in a quick look Mr. C couldn't come up with any more Akechi allies at the battle we didn't list.

And just to close out my contribution, here's a map of the battlefield and forces as they saw things in 1880. Looks like they knew a lot less than we do, or the reports are correct and the Imperial Japanese General Staff account of the battle (on which most everthing in Rekishi Gunzou and other modern sources are based on) made up a bunch of stuff (like they definitely did for Tedorigawa)  Just Kidding .


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm not worthy Thanks a lot for all your contribution, I know so little.

Tatsunoshi wrote:
It's listed as Namikawa in the Japanese general staff's 1890's account of the battle, along with an 1880's map book I have of Japanese battlefields. Since Nabika is the more common reading of 並河, I would lean towards Namikawa since these sources must have had a reason to take a much less common reading.

if we knew for sure the Namikawa/Nabika owned the castle (maybe your source will tell us if they did, in which case it's a done deal)


As far as you ask if Namikawa/Nabika Kamon owned this castle, the answer is yes.The 4 Japanese website confirm him as the owner of the castle.
Being at the entry of Tanba province, very close to Kyôto, Kamon was one of the first to surrender to Akechi Mitsuhide and helped him throughout the whole Tanba campaign.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lugbar wrote:
Since As far as you ask if Namikawa/Nabika Kamon owned this castle, the answer is yes.The 4 Japanese website confirm him as the owner of the castle.


So Nabika it is. Nice work!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Murakami Kyokuni should be Murakami Kiyokuni

thanks Mr. Green

Tatsunoshi wrote:
Fujita Yukimasa (who Turnbull has rendered as Toda Yukimasa) was ostensibly part of the Akechi main force, but appears to have led a detachment of about 500 men during the battle on the Akechi right.

It asked me some research to avoid the error. Wink

Tatsunoshi wrote:
There's also a Horio Shoubei/Shoubee (堀尾庄兵衛) who commanded a detachment (a few hundred) from Ise's forces. He operated to Ise's left and supposedly was one of the better combatants on the Akechi side of things. Other than him, in a quick look Mr. C couldn't come up with any more Akechi allies at the battle we didn't list.


It is interesting for me to see you mention Horio Shôbei. I had eliminated him so far, as my sources were contradictory.
1- Turnbull effectively mentions Horio Shôbei
2- I did not find any Horio Shôbei in the Akechi Mitsuhide retainer list, at least those that I have got from internet
3- Rekishi Gunzoo#30's map mentions Mizoo Shôbei at the position used by Turnbull for Horio Shôbei. But Mizoo Shôbei=Akechi Shigetomo the retainer that is just on the other side of the river !
4- I have found at least 3 maps in the books I own with the name 溝尾勝兵衛 Mizoo Shôbei and none with 堀尾庄兵衛. Mizoo Shôbei writes also 溝尾庄兵衛
5- 堀尾 and 溝尾 may be mistaken one for the other ??

Well I decided to skip this Horio Shôbei. There is already one Horio on Hideyoshi's side by the way.
Let me know if you have better information. Idea
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