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Wave Tossed
Tsushima no Kami

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: SEPPUKU aka HARA KIRI -- incredible film

I just got watching SEPPUKU, directed by Kobayashi Masaki with Nakadai Tatsuya in the lead role. I've seen this film loads of times, mostly at home on my small TV screen using the Criterion DVD that I own. However this last time was special, as in our locale (Baltimore, Maryland), we are having a Samurai Film Revival at one of our local art house theatres. So I was able to view it on The Big Screen. And yes, I did eat popcorn while watching it. Just Kidding

I also was able to get a friend of mine to come with me to watch it; this is a person who had told me, "I'm not into samurai films" when I first suggested to her that we watch it. I sent her the URL for the IMDB web site for SEPPUKU.

Just a note: for those who aren't familiar with IMDB, this is the International Movie Data Base and it lists every film that anyone in the entire world have ever heard of. If any reviews or commentaries exist, these are included. Below is the URL for SEPPUKU. You will see in the "customer comments" and on IMDB's message board for SEPPUKU (each film listed offers a message board), a customer comment and few messages from some character named "Wave Tossed." Yep, that's me. Twisted Evil

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056058/

At any rate, my friend was persuaded to come with me. After watching the film, she thanked me for pushing her into watching the film with me. This is a film that goes way beyond simply being a "samurai" or "chambara" movie.

At another message board that I participate in, which centers on samurai films, we had a 4 page discussion on this film. There have been a few comments in the "Last Samurai" thread that made me want to open up a separate thread on SEPPUKU. So here it is. I'd love a discussion on this film, what made it memorable. Or else why you hated it or got bored by it -- whatever.
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kitsuno
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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject:

I actually haven't seen it yet - I'll be seeing it by the end of the week - but which is it officially - Seppuku or Hara Kiri?

Wave Tossed
Tsushima no Kami

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject:

kitsuno wrote:

I actually haven't seen it yet - I'll be seeing it by the end of the week - but which is it officially - Seppuku or Hara Kiri?

The Japanese title, the one Kobayashi et al gave to the film is SEPPUKU. But in English-speaking sectors, it was decided to call the film HARA KIRI because that phrase is much more well known in the English-speaking world. The current DVD released by Criterion, calls the film HARA KIRI. MYself, I prefer the original Japanese title SEPPUKU because it ties in so well with the theme of the film.
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msr.iaidoka
Iaidouka

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject:

Wave Tossed,

I have to agree with your choice of the titles. Seppuku has much more meaning than just "middle cutting."
Also, by the way, the "I" in IMDB means Internet, not International.

Peace,

Matt
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kitsuno
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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject:

Does it have an optional commentary? The Criterion Collection DVDs that I have with commentary are some of the best commentaries I've heard, particularly for Seven Samurai, and Rashomon is interesting too.

kitsuno
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Location: Honolulu, HI

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject:

Also, how does Seppuku contrast with Yukio Mishima's "Patriotism"? I thought it was a great book, considering I think it was less than 40 pages. I have no idea about the plot, but the concept seems similar.

AJBryant
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Shikken

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I have to agree with your choice of the titles. Seppuku has much more meaning than just "middle cutting."

"Hara kiri" doesn't mean "middle cutting." It means exactly the same thing as seppuku, using as it does the same kanji -- only reversing them for Japanese grammar (object-verb) rather than the Chinese grammar (verb-object).

Tony
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msr.iaidoka
Iaidouka

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject:

AJBryant,

I could have sworn that hara means "abdomen" and that kiri is "to cut" (as in kirigami and tameshigiri).
As for the meaning, it is just what my Iaidou sensei taught me about the philosophical difference. I suppose that falls under the realm of individual preference.

Peace,

Matt
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Wave Tossed
Tsushima no Kami

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject:

kitsuno wrote:

I've read "Patriotism" as well as having seen the film SEPPUKU. The themes seem very different, indeed.

"Patriotism" was about a Japanese soldier and his wife as they strive to uphold what they see as the lost concepts of Bushido. In reaction to what he sees as Bushido's corruption, the soldier takes part in an ultimately futile plot against the government. He comes home in defeat and commits seppuku. His wife commits jigai to follow him into death.

SEPPUKU is about over-riding authority, which twist and corrupt the concepts of Bushido. Some say that SEPPUKU is against Bushido, period. Not so (at least in my opinion) because the main character upholds the concepts of Bushido right until the moment he dies. However, in this film, it's the authorities who act first against the indivudual and his family rather than the individual acting against the government. At the very end, the clan authorities seek to deny the man's intent to commit seppuku. He commits seppuku in defiance of the authorities.

The main thematic differences that I can see is that in "Patriotism," the main character makes an explicit political statement about how government and society should be structured before he commits seppuku. In SEPPUKU, the main character avenges the deaths of his family. Though he makes some general political points about Shogunate policies, it's more personal rather than political. He wanted to get justice for his son-in-law's death after his son-in-law acted, not as part of a political plot, but only to get some money for a doctor for his dying infant son.

There are some similarities. Both works feature individuals who take actions against the overwhelming authority of a corrupt state. In both works, the state succeeds in snuffing out these individuals. In both cases, the individuals wind up commiting seppuku. Also in "Patriotism," the soldier's wife commits jigai at the very end, following her husband into death.

Hmmm, very interesting question. Not easily answered.
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Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject:

Wave Tossed wrote:

However, in this film, it's the authorities who act first against the indivudual and his family rather than the individual acting against the government.

Hmm...it seems to me the movie was initiated by a poor ronin attempting to extort money from an unconnected clan (for a good cause). The authorities (in this case, the Ii) did not act first against him...they simply reacted to what they saw as dishonorable and dishonest behavior by a ronin. The Ii were as much the victims of Shogunal policy as the ronin. It's not like the Ii went looking for ronin to screw over-trouble came knocking on their door. While the Ii obviously overreacted, one could make a case that what they did was justified to an extent (otherwise, once word got out, they would be driven into bankruptcy by ronin pulling the same scam). Their crime was in being too harsh (just publicly shaming the ronin by calling his bluff would likely have had the desired effect) and then attempting (successfully) to cover up the events.

Hara.Tadayasu
Rice Farmer

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject:

Well, I have a Yokoku (Patriostism) Rite Of Love & Death By Yukio Mishima on my HDD (350MB).
FTP anyone? .)
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Hara.Tadayasu
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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject:

Seppuku also.
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msr.iaidoka
Iaidouka

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:16 pm Post subject:

Hara.Tadayasu,

I shall have to take you up on that offer when I get my laptop back in working order.

Peace,

Matt
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kitsuno
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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:47 pm Post subject:

Hara.Tadayasu wrote:

Well, I have a Yokoku (Patriostism) Rite Of Love & Death By Yukio Mishima on my HDD (350MB).
FTP anyone? .)

Torrent! Torrent!

AJBryant
Shikken
Shikken

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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:10 am Post subject:

Code:

I could have sworn that hara means "abdomen" and that kiri is "to cut" (as in kirigami and tameshigiri).

Hara *does* mean abdomen. That's what the fuku/puku in seppuku is.

Harakiri　腹切り = belly cutting
Seppuku　切腹 = cutting the belly

Quote:

As for the meaning, it is just what my Iaidou sensei taught me about the philosophical difference. I suppose that falls under the realm of individual preference.

Your iaido sensei is continuing a long line of martial arts instructors pontificating on linguistic/cultural/historical/Japanese issues they know naught of. It's a familiar (and all too typical) problem. Wink

Tony
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Wave Tossed
Tsushima no Kami

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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:22 am Post subject:

***Warning!! Spoiler alert for those who haven't seen the film and don't want to know how it turn out.******

Tatsunoshi wrote:

Wave Tossed wrote:

However, in this film, it's the authorities who act first against the indivudual and his family rather than the individual acting against the government.

Absolutely. I over-simplified the plot in my discussion about comparing SEPPUKU with "Patriotism."

It's pretty clear that Tsugumo (the older ronin, avenging his son-in-law's death) believed that the Ii clan was justified in insisting on the seppuku once Motome (the son-in-law who had tried to extort money) appeared to request seppuku. Had the Ii clan lent Motome a blade, as Tsugumo at first assumed when the Ii retainers returned Motome's body, then Tsugumo would have mourned his son-in-law's death and the fact that they were so poor that it drove Motome to attempt his reckless act. But he would have accepted the Ii clan's insistance on Motome's commiting seppuku.

It was the gross over-reaction -- insisting that Motome commit seppuku with his bamboo wakizashi (being so poor, Motome had already pawned his real blades and substituted bamboo) that got Tsugumo so enraged. Those retainers were so arrogant and full of themselves -- do you remember the guy who gives out that little laugh at the thought of Motome doing his agonizing seppuku ritual? That little laugh (plus his previous actions) cost that guy his life.
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msr.iaidoka
Iaidouka

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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject:

AJBryant,

Point taken. One point

I wish I could claim that Mason Sensei was from Japan, but given his extreme whiteness that is an imposibility. His sensei, our doujou founder, was also American but spent a couple of decades in Japan training under Nakayama Hakudo so he was about as Japanese as anyone in our part of the world could hope for.
Part of the reason I am trying to learn Japanese is to be able to properly understand all the things that have been misunderstood and mistranslated by my fellow gaijin martial artists. I have found it hilarious how often people translate Iaidou as "the way of drawing the sword" when, at best, I figure it to be "the way of gathered existence." Do you have a different translation for the combination of Iru, Ai, and Dou?

Peace,

Matt
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AJBryant
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Shikken

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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Do you have a different translation for the combination of Iru, Ai, and Dou?

I usually don't try to do that. Literal translations almost always sound stupid and are, in fact, unhelpful in many cases. That's why I say "Iaido" or, if necessary, "think of it as 'Japanese quick-draw' exercises."

It's better to just know what the thing is. E.g., "yoroshiku onegai shimasu" basically can mean either "pleased to meet you" or "I really appreciate the favor", depending on context. That's how it's used, and that's what matters. It doesn't help the student to know that it means "I humbly beg that it will be good."

(That's an abbreviated version of one of my patented rants on thejapanesepage.com forums, when one of the learners insists on getting a literal definition for an idiom.)

Tony
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msr.iaidoka
Iaidouka

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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject:

AJBryant,

Understood. I guess that is the drawback to being inquisitive, the more your figure out about something the more you realize that it does not matter.

Peace,

Matt
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Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami

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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject:

Wave Tossed wrote:

Those retainers were so arrogant and full of themselves -- do you remember the guy who gives out that little laugh at the thought of Motome doing his agonizing seppuku ritual? That little laugh (plus his previous actions) cost that guy his life.

Yep-that made the hair-tossing scene all the much sweeter.

ltdomer98
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject:

AJBryant wrote:

I apply the "place name" rule to a lot of things. You don't translate the town I live in as "Big Peace"--it's just "Yamato". Likewise, my neighborhood isn't "Lower Crane Place", it's Shimo Tsuruma.
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ltdomer98
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject:

msr.iaidoka wrote:

Understood. I guess that is the drawback to being inquisitive, the more your figure out about something the more you realize that it does not matter.

One of my beefs with many martial artists is that they treat the name of their techniques as though they have some mystical meaning, when really it means something like "pulling the guy's arm until it breaks" or "choking the bastard" or something simple like that. This is by no means relegated to martial arts, of course. (though I do get such a kick out of listening to English lang. broadcasts of Sumo, when they give the winning technique..."Jim, he just executed an OshiDashi to get his opponent out of the ring"...you jackass, that means "push him out"...)
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Wave Tossed
Tsushima no Kami

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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject:

Tatsunoshi wrote:

Wave Tossed wrote:

Yep-that made the hair-tossing scene all the much sweeter.

Yep. Those Ii clan guys had a bad-hair day! Just Kidding

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AJBryant
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I apply the "place name" rule to a lot of things. You don't translate the town I live in as "Big Peace"--it's just "Yamato". Likewise, my neighborhood isn't "Lower Crane Place", it's Shimo Tsuruma.

This was an endless source of amusement to some friends of my early on in Japan.

Seibu Ikebukuro = Western Military Pond Bag.

What do we make of Takadanobaba? (High Paddy of the Horse Place?)

Tony
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msr.iaidoka
Iaidouka

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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:17 am Post subject:

ltdomer98,

I have always wanted to learn the actual names of my various techniques just out of curiosity, not for any believe that they mean, "Flying Squirrel Testicle Smash" or anything special. Sometimes techniques can have some pretty strange names with no apparant reason, and that is a great source of humor for me, especially some of the more flashy martial arts.

Peace,

Matt
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