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Wo Long
Ronin
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Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 244
Location: Minnesota, USA
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 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| evalerio wrote: |
Maeda Toshiie was a daimyo who served Oda Nobunaga as a member of his elite bodyguards, which were also Nobunaga's Tsukaiban. At Nagashino Toshiie was one of those chosen to be 'teppo-gashira'.
Sasa Narimasa and Kanamori Nagachika were also members of Nobunaga's elite bodyguards who were chosen as 'teppo-gashira' at Nagashino. Nagachika was given command of 500 arquebusiers and detached as part of Sakai Tadatsugu's surprise attack on the Takeda siege lines. |
About that. Honda Tadakatsu's bio at SA says that he commanded a rank of riflemen at Nagashino. Would that make him a teppo-gashira, then? |
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evalerio
Gunshi
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Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Wo Long wrote: |
| evalerio wrote: |
Maeda Toshiie was a daimyo who served Oda Nobunaga as a member of his elite bodyguards, which were also Nobunaga's Tsukaiban. At Nagashino Toshiie was one of those chosen to be 'teppo-gashira'.
Sasa Narimasa and Kanamori Nagachika were also members of Nobunaga's elite bodyguards who were chosen as 'teppo-gashira' at Nagashino. Nagachika was given command of 500 arquebusiers and detached as part of Sakai Tadatsugu's surprise attack on the Takeda siege lines. |
About that. Honda Tadakatsu's bio at SA says that he commanded a rank of riflemen at Nagashino. Would that make him a teppo-gashira, then? |
That would be his 'job position' for that battle. |
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JLBadgley
Hida no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1309
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
Tony,
I agree full-heartedly with your analysis that ranks did not exist, but jobs and responsibilities, carrying certain degrees of prestige. Thank you for putting this issue to rest. |
I think one thing ought to be clarified--Ranks did exist, but they were court ranks, and by the Sengoku period I'm not sure they had much weight. For instance, we have Takeda Shingen as 'Daizen Daibu', granting him 5th court rank. As mentioned, this 'rank' has nothing to do with the military job someone might hold; certain 'job titles' for the Imperial court assumed certain rank, though.
Did anyone other than kuge and daimyo get/care about court rank, though? I assume it carried some weight up through the Muromachi period, since contact with the kuge in Heian-kyo and the Imperial court was still rather important, if only as a symbol of power. By the Onin War, though, I'm not sure if it held much meaning at all anymore, except for a very small circle of kuge.
-Josh |
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CheesePlant
Village Councilman
Member for 3 years
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 48
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:46 am Post subject: |
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Woah Akaguma thats great I promise to read it in greater detail when I get more time. Its been awhile since I have looked at this thread.
I found these also:
Organization of Daimyo Honorary Ranks
First Level
-DajOdaijin (Grand Minister)
-Sadaijin (Minister of the Left)
-Udaijin (Minister of the Right)
-Naidaijin (Interior Minister)
Second Level
-Dainagon (Grand Counselor)
-Cmnagon (Middle Counselor)
-Sangi (Consultant)
Third Level
-Chüjö (Lieutenant General)
-Shöshö (Commander)
-Jijü (Chamberlain)
-Shihon (Fourth Rank)
Fourth Level
-Shotaifu (Stewards)
Source from here |
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AJBryant
Shikken
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Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1717
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Ummmm....
Those are *offices* in the Dajokan, the imperial Council of State.
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CheesePlant
Village Councilman
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| As in the name of the physical buildings? |
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AJBryant
Shikken
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: |
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No.
Offices like "president" and "secretary" and "chamberlain" and "minister."
Tony
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CheesePlant
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Ah political positions.
What is the difference between a Shogun and Daimyo? The Wiki tells me about Shoguns but not Wiki's.
Am I right in thinking a Shogun is like a Prime minister/President and the Daimyos are incharge of districts/towns? |
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lordameth
Gunshi
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: |
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The best way to think of it is that daimyo are like feudal lords, and the shogun is the lord of lords, a position which in the stereotypical European context would be king.
In the Sengoku period, daimyo basically just claimed power and land for themselves through military might. Tokugawa Ieyasu then took over the entire country through his own military might (i.e. he's the mightiest of the daimyo, first among equals) and then redistributed those lands to the daimyo, who owed fealty and loyalty to the shogunate.
"Lords" is really the best way to think about it, not as governors or bureaucrats in a formalized governmental hierarchy. Daimyo were not civil servants or public officials, they were nobles, ruling over large swaths of land ("han" or feudal domains), more the size of provinces than cities or towns or districts, and largely independent within their own territories, owing loyalty and taxes to the shogun, but not the kind of formal administrative obligations of a bureaucrat or governor.
(The major cities, however, were governed more like how you describe, with an official assigned and appointed by the shogunate)
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Lupus
Rice Farmer
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Great item...
What does the word Taisho mean?? Its used a few times in the info but i've looked oin the wiki and i can't find a translation..
Also what does Ukonoe Taisho mean, it was one of the Title of not only Minamoto Yorimoto and Tokugawa Iemochi.. |
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Kasemacher
Inkeeper
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: |
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I'm fairly certain that taishô is equal or similar to a general/military commander
Last edited by Kasemacher on Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:58 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Lupus
Rice Farmer
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Kasemacher wrote: |
| I'm fairly certain that taisho is equal to general |
Don't know this line would lead me away from that..
sakite-daishô 先手大将
The sakite-daishô is in charge of a platoon that fights in first line. The most reckless taishô request to fight in first line because there is far more opportunities to win fame through combat.
Why have your Generals in a unit and them have them attack the enemy...  |
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Kasemacher
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps instead of a general, it's maybe like a regiment leader?
I just know 大将 usually translates to one of the following: admiral, general, boss (like Boss Hog) |
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Lupus
Rice Farmer
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Well just found this source here..
Info
Ukonoe no Taisho is Commander of the Inner Guards of the right...
So it would make it seem that Taisho is commander of some sort...Maybe not as high as a general but someone of veteran standing.. |
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evalerio
Gunshi
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Lupus wrote: |
Well just found this source here..
Info
Ukonoe no Taisho is Commander of the Inner Guards of the right...
So it would make it seem that Taisho is commander of some sort...Maybe not as high as a general but someone of veteran standing.. |
Think of 'job positions' rather than rank.
A Taisho in one army may function as a general, and in another army as a 'platoon leader'.
A taisho may be 'assigned' to lead a regiment in one battle and in the next battle be assigned to lead a smaller unit.
In samurai armies many 'generals' led from the front, and could be found leading a small squad rather than an army. The same individual could lead one platoon in one battle and in the next battle be put in command of several companies. Taisho's could be an 'officer' functioning as a 'general', a 'captain' or a 'lieutenant'.
Hara Toratane was one of Takeda Shingen's 24 Generals. He is considered one of the best commanders of ashigaru, an ashigaru-taisho.
Hajikano Masatsugu was a member of Takeda Shingen's elite messenger corps. He was also one of Shingen's ashigaru-taisho. |
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Lupus
Rice Farmer
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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@Evalerio...Cool thanks for that it does take some getting used to the idea of Jobs that can change but i'm sort of getting used to the idea...
Its also very odd to see some of the idea's that they had, but it worked so who am i to question them... |
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Akaguma
Kibamusha
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Location: Strasbourg, France
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| evalerio wrote: |
| Think of 'job positions' rather than rank. |
I'm sure I've already read something like that not so long ago ! 
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