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evalerio
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abu Ayyub wrote:
thank you for such a quick reply. some of your information is new to me and i really appreciate it. btw, i'm in victoria so we're neighbors.


My brother was in Victoria yesterday to see the 'Titanic' exhibit. He took a helijet home with Gordon Campbell as one of the passengers. Cool


Abu Ayyub wrote:
anyways here's info to cross-examine:

Okubo Tadayo:
always thought his standards were black. i've read his ko uma jirushi was a gold disc and that this was painted on his ashigaru's armour. i wondered about the silver butterfly sashimono on the Anegawa battle screen but you clarified that for me.


Close up photo of the Anegawa screen show Okubo's flag as dark blue. Rekishi Gunzo color plates also show dark blue Okubo flags. Black 3d butterfly sashimono on one of the samurai also appear on the Anegawa screen, showing the black 3d butterfly sashimono next to the dark blue uma-jirushi for color comparison.

Abu Ayyub wrote:
Takigawa Kazumasa:
was his sliced melon mon used in his heraldry?


I can only assume at this time that this mon was used on sashimono, black mon on white flags.

Abu Ayyub wrote:
Sakuma Nobumori:
you mention his banner bearing sections of white, black and green, I've seen one similar but with blue-gray instead of green.


The light green on Nobumori's nobori is similar to the color I used for the color plate of Sakuma Yasumasa. Both flags appeared together in a Rekishi Gunzo color plate so I was able to make comparisons.

I have photos of ashigaru armour for Sakakibara Yasumasa. Okegawa do lacquered red with the a large wheel mon in black.
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Abu Ayyub
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks again for the info. still a number of gaps to fill but those gaps are getting smaller. I'd love to see any new color plates you have.
i'm basically trying to piece together the heraldry for:

Takeda forces at Mikata ga Hara and Nagashino

Oda forces at the above

Tokugawa forces at the above plus Nagakute

Toyotomi forces at the above plus Shizugatake

well, back to the research...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's my favorite bit of samurai (sort of) heraldry-a sashimono displaying the famous slogan of the Ikko-Ikki:



"Advance and be reborn in Paradise;retreat and fall immediately into Hell"
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsu,

That is really something. Thanks for posting that! Smile
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Here's my favorite bit of samurai (sort of) heraldry-a sashimono displaying the famous slogan of the Ikko-Ikki:

"Advance and be reborn in Paradise;retreat and fall immediately into Hell"


I am currently doing 28mm scale Ikko-ikki figures for the boss, so I'm doing color references for Ikko-ikki banners. Very Happy Happy Dance
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
I am currently doing 28mm scale Ikko-ikki figures for the boss, so I'm doing color references for Ikko-ikki banners. Very Happy Happy Dance


Sgrunt... why the heck other people is so happy with
his work and not me ? Angry

Next life will be different... Just Kidding
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abu Ayyub wrote:
Thanks again for the info. still a number of gaps to fill but those gaps are getting smaller. I'd love to see any new color plates you have.
i'm basically trying to piece together the heraldry for:

Takeda forces at Mikata ga Hara and Nagashino

Oda forces at the above...

Tokugawa forces at the above plus Nagakute

Toyotomi forces at the above plus Shizugatake

well, back to the research...


Some of the heraldry sets in the 'Samurai Heraldry' will help:

For the Takeda at Nagashino: In the Sanada heraldry section, the two Sanada brothers who were killed in the battle. Heraldry for other Takeda generals are already in the works.

The Tokugawa at Nagashino: Sakai Tadatsugu. Color plates for the defenders of Nagashino castle is already in the works. Also in the works Torii Mototada who would die in the defense of Fushimi castle 1600.

For Oda at Nagashino: Niwa Nagahide. Other Oda family members are in the works.

For Toyotomi at Nagashino and Shizugatake: Yamauchi Kazutoyo. The 'Seven Spears of Shizugatake' section might help later, as I'm adding the personal sashimono worn by them when they fought as 'lower ranking' men at Shizugatake. Also in the works are Hideyoshi's castle defenders at Shizugatake.

As for the Takeda, Oda and Tokugawa at Mikata ga Hara: I'm finally able to do color plates of battle scenes of Mikata ga Hara from my very old sketchbook. Color plates I'm working on:

Sakai Tadatsugu's contingent cut off from the main Tokugawa body fighting their way out of encirclement.

Honda Tadakatsu and his men desperately 'holding the line' as the Tokugawa line is beginning to crumble.

Okubo Tadayo entrusted with the Tokugawa Golden Fan standard rallying the Tokugawa troops.

I am showing these to my boss. Let's see if something develops.


Last edited by evalerio on Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
THERE IS NOT A DAMNED WAY TO MAKE THIS THREAD A STICKY ? IT IS EXCELLENT Steel chair!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tsubame1 wrote:
THERE IS NOT A DAMNED WAY TO MAKE THIS THREAD A STICKY ? IT IS EXCELLENT Steel chair!


Well, since you put it that way...
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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh, c'mon you know the capitols were a joke. Just Kidding
I believe and hope this thread will be updated for long time and possibly begin a reference for searches. I wonder if there is other material in previous posts that is not here and can be "transferred". ..
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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Here's my favorite bit of samurai (sort of) heraldry-a sashimono displaying the famous slogan of the Ikko-Ikki:

"Advance and be reborn in Paradise;retreat and fall immediately into Hell"


I am currently doing 28mm scale Ikko-ikki figures for the boss, so I'm doing color references for Ikko-ikki banners. Very Happy Happy Dance


Are you doing anything for warrior monks/sohei (one can always hope!)?
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
evalerio wrote:
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Here's my favorite bit of samurai (sort of) heraldry-a sashimono displaying the famous slogan of the Ikko-Ikki:

"Advance and be reborn in Paradise;retreat and fall immediately into Hell"


I am currently doing 28mm scale Ikko-ikki figures for the boss, so I'm doing color references for Ikko-ikki banners. Very Happy Happy Dance


Are you doing anything for warrior monks/sohei (one can always hope!)?


I did a 28mm figure set of six Sohei and a mounted warrior monk. I'll have to research banners that they used to include in the painting references for the Ikko-ikki.
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Abu Ayyub
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I'm finally able to do color plates of battle scenes of Mikata ga Hara from my very old sketchbook. Color plates I'm working on:

Sakai Tadatsugu's contingent cut off from the main Tokugawa body fighting their way out of encirclement.

Honda Tadakatsu and his men desperately 'holding the line' as the Tokugawa line is beginning to crumble.

Okubo Tadayo entrusted with the Tokugawa Golden Fan standard rallying the Tokugawa troops.


Wow, can't wait to see some of your new color plates. Thank you for all the information. I've been cross-referencing my notes with the sets found in 'Samurai Heraldry.' btw, Turnbull mentions in Nagashino 1575 that Okubo Tadayo's brother Tadasuke wore the golden butterfly sashimono. Any further info?

Thanks.
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abu Ayyub wrote:


Wow, can't wait to see some of your new color plates. Thank you for all the information. I've been cross-referencing my notes with the sets found in 'Samurai Heraldry.' btw, Turnbull mentions in Nagashino 1575 that Okubo Tadayo's brother Tadasuke wore the golden butterfly sashimono. Any further info?

Thanks.


The 3d butterfly sashimono were worn by Okubo family members and their samurai. In 'Samurai Warfare' Tadayo's son Tadachika's sashimono is unclear on the Anegawa screen. It looks like a light blue or green 3d butterfly, but probably a 'faded' gold one. Tadayo's own is mentioned as gold in The Sourcebook, screen in Rekishi Gunzo book showing the wings with red spots along the edges

One of the many reasons I have been taking so long with the Okubo. Turnbull's books have the flags in black, while screen and color plates in Rekishi Gunzo have them in dark blue. No photos of actual 3d butterfly sashimono to use as reference. Still looking for photos of sets of armour for the Okubo.

I still haven't had a chance to study a clear and colorful version of the Anegawa screen in a 2-page spread in a book of Tokugawa collection. Here the Okubo banner is a dark blue.
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
To Maximillen:

I am currently sorting out the Oda.

Nobunaga had contingents flying yellow and white flags, the nobori had the coin symbol in black. The contingent's sashimono matching the nobori. He had two bodyguard/tsukaiban units, one with red horo, a second with black horo.

Nobunaga's sons had their own sets, in red and white, using either the coin symbol or the Oda mon. I've come across at least three different sets.

Nobunaga's cousin Nobunori:
Nobori: Red with a red fan inside a white disc.
Uma-jirushi: 3d red fan atop a pole with two 3d black feather balls, one on top of the other.
Tsukaiban sashimono: 3d tree with 10 branches, in 5 paired sets of branches of black feather!

The flags you mentioned on Uesugi Kenshin are incomplete. The red sun disc on dark blue is a hata-jirushi. This would fly over Kenshin's headquarters, along with a Fan standard similar to Tokugawa Ieyasu's famous golden fan standard. The Uesugi fan is dark blue with a red disc. These flags would remain over the headquarters if Kenshin rode out to inspect his troops or if he charged into battle. The 'Bi' Bishamonten flag would fly wherever Kenshin was, indicating his presence. The Dragon banner would be raised if Kenshin goes into the attack.

Uesugi Kagekatsu had a light blue fan standard, uma-jirushi of a large golden disc on dark blue, and a Bishamonten flag with the character written differently, 'horizontally' as opposed to Kenshin's 'vertical' version. His sashimono was red.

As far as I can tell at this moment, the Nakajo, Suda and Saito sashimono are smaller versions of the standards depicted in warflag.com. The Nakajo sashimono appear as black with the 'W' character in white AND a sashimono of white with red vertical stripes.

NOTE: The Suda banner in warflag.com is black. Color plates in two of Turnbull's book depict the Suda standard and sashimono as dark blue with the gold swastika.
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just added the Okubo and Ishikawa in page 1 of 'Samurai Heraldry'.

Putting the finishing touches to the Sakakibara. Looking for confirmation of the date of birth and death of Sakakibara Yasukatsu, (1590-1615)?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
Looking for confirmation of the date of birth and death of Sakakibara Yasukatsu, (1590-1615)?


That's it ! more precisely 1590 (Tenshô 18 ) - June 23rd 1615 (Genna 1, 5th month 27th)

榊原 康勝(さかきばら やすかつ、1590年(天正18年) - 1615年6月23日(元和元年5月27日)
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Akaguma wrote:
evalerio wrote:
Looking for confirmation of the date of birth and death of Sakakibara Yasukatsu, (1590-1615)?


That's it ! more precisely 1590 (Tenshô 18 ) - June 23rd 1615 (Genna 1, 5th month 27th)

榊原 康勝(さかきばら やすかつ、1590年(天正18年) - 1615年6月23日(元和元年5月27日)



Thank you.

June 23, 1615! That's sad. Too young for Sekigahara, but taking part in the Osaka Winter campaign and fighting his last battle at Tennoji June 4, 1615. Then dead 19 days later at around 24 years of age.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
to Evalerio,

Domo arigatou gozaimashita!

I never thought it was so....complex! I wonder how samurai and ashigaru could recognize who is who!! (well,...ok... I knew that some soldiers had the same problem during the Napoleonic wars Just Kidding )


Thanks,
MAX Just Kidding
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maximilien wrote:
I wonder how samurai and ashigaru could recognize who is who!!

I presume that they had a lecture before battle :
"OK, boys ! You see that banner ? It's the bad guys' ! Repeat after me : baaad guys ! " Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maximilien wrote:
to Evalerio,

Domo arigatou gozaimashita!

I never thought it was so....complex! I wonder how samurai and ashigaru could recognize who is who!! (well,...ok... I knew that some soldiers had the same problem during the Napoleonic wars Just Kidding )


Thanks,
MAX Just Kidding


They would keep a samurai on hand with the commander of a contingent who was well-versed in whose heraldry was whose. He would answer questions the commander would have.

On a more tactical level the "unit" commanders would know the heraldry of those "units" they were fighting beside so they could keep from charging the friendly units on the left and right.

It wouldn't stop all of it from happening, but at least there was a system in place.
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Akaguma wrote:
Maximilien wrote:
I wonder how samurai and ashigaru could recognize who is who!!

I presume that they had a lecture before battle :
"OK, boys ! You see that banner ? It's the bad guys' ! Repeat after me : baaad guys ! " Wink


Such a lecture was depicted in both TV series 'Komyo ga Tsuji' and 'Furin Kazan', where the troops were being reminded of their OWN flags! Laughing

The heraldry of many armies changed as their commanders rose in 'rank' or replaced by another member of the family.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I loved the scene in "Kômyô" where the Loyal Old Retainer<tm> was explaining to the New Guys (and the wimmin) the origin behind the Yamauchi banner. Smile


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some more excellent color plates evalerio! Hard work and research really pays off. In regards to your Sakakibara plates, I've seen another example of the samurai sashimono with a white 'law wheel' instead of black. One was from a contemporary Japanese color plate depicting Yasumasa himself, and the other I found flying within the Tokugawa Headquarters on the Osaka screen which looks either black with white wheel or dark blue. Well, just a couple observations. Can't wait to see more work!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hello,

Looking for some pictures of samurai armor on the web, i found two or three times a nobori attributed to Oda Nobunaga (pictures from Kurosawa film "kagemusha", figurine model box "Age of battle: Okehazama" from Zvesda (http://www.zvezda.org.ru)).

This flag is yellow with three Oda mon in black (and sashimono with two Mon).
Those pictures are all modern one. I am wondering about there historical relevance.

Many thanks,
Maximilien
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