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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: National Museum of Japanese History matchlock articles. Reply with quote
From the National Museum of Japanese History. Some interesting images and information.

Secret books on the art of gunnery from the time of transition to the Early Modern period
http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/english/publication/rekihaku/126witness.html

Matchlock construction methods.
http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/english/publication/rekihaku/114witness.html

The Introduction of Guns in Japanese History
– From Tanegashima to the Boshin War –
http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/exhibitions/project/img/061003/061003_e.pdf

Volumes of marksmanship teachings.
http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/english/publication/rekihaku/108witness.html


Last edited by estcrh on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: National Museum of Japanese History matchlock articles. Reply with quote
estcrh wrote:


The Introduction of Guns in Japanese History
– From Tanegashima to the Boshin War –
http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/exhibitions/project/img/061003/061003_e.pdf


Hey, wait, shouldn't that title actually be "The Introduction of Guns in Japanese History – From Tanegashima to the Mid-17th Century and Then Again Around the Boshin War"?

And, oh my - in one place it talks about "...using guns made in the Edo period"! And about gunnery technology in early 19th century Japan! Whatever hack wrote this needs to go back to basics and read Perrin, the expert on Japanese history!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Woah Do0d! One of the other articles you posted says "and while the majority is comprised of gun books of secrets from the middle of the Edo period and works written on the subject of Western military science, the collection contains a number of rare books of secrets from the period of transition at the beginning of the Early Modern period, few of which remain today." WTF?? Sammyrai hated guns, why would there be manuals written in the middle of the Edo period? Who comes up with this trash? Why didn't they read Perrin?!/1!!1!!?? He is, after all, an expert on Japan and the manufacture (or lack thereof) of guns in Japan! He's a PhD in Japanese history, right?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Eric really miffed you guys, huh? That is a problem we often see with history buffs isn't it? Too much investment in source material to the exclusion of other sources that contest our favourite theory/idea of the time. Just a question of maturing judgement and using the scientific method. Still and all, it did provoke research and reassessment. John
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
Eric really miffed you guys, huh? That is a problem we often see with history buffs isn't it? Too much investment in source material to the exclusion of other sources that contest our favourite theory/idea of the time. Just a question of maturing judgement and using the scientific method. Still and all, it did provoke research and reassessment. John


Kitsuno's reaction is a bit over the top, to be sure. However, the logical arguments presented to him in the other thread haven't managed to make any impression on him, as he just sidesteps and says "oh yeah, well show me in the book!" As Kitsuno's sarcasm points out, Eric (is that his name? I have no idea, but fair enough) has given us himself plenty of documentation that appears to contradict his support of Perrin in the other thread, or at least should cause him to reexamine his support of Perrin. This, if nothing else, is what confuses most of us arguing with him over there--he's obviously knowledgeable, and concerning the technical matters surrounding teppo, extremely so. Yet he defends Perrin, when Perrin isn't writing so much about technical matters as he is social.

Separating this thread from the other, however (since it is after all its own thread), I appreciate the links posted. I haven't had a chance to go through them in detail (life sucks when your boss gets sent to Afghanistan on 1-week notice and you have to pick up his job in addition to your own), but they look pretty worthwhile.

estrch has refrained from attacking in the other thread, and that's a good thing. I'd recommend those disagreeing with him do the same, though a little sarcasm to point out inconsistencies is different than blatant attacks. No one wins an argument by not being civil. I just wish we'd actually get more of an argument, and less of "well, when you read his book you'll see!"
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
Eric really miffed you guys, huh? That is a problem we often see with history buffs isn't it? Too much investment in source material to the exclusion of other sources that contest our favourite theory/idea of the time. Just a question of maturing judgement and using the scientific method. Still and all, it did provoke research and reassessment. John


Although I admit that his willful ignorance is annoying, the fact that he ignored about 90% of the comments outright and continues to persist in the face of a mountain of both evidence and common sense has reached the point of rabid zealotry. All this over a poorly researched book by a non specialist that has been dismissed completely by anyone and everyone in the academic circles of Japanese history and culture. The only real mystery is, what's in it for him to persist in this blind worship of perrin?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
In another thread Estcrh gave the link for another article written by the Rekihaku(National Museum of Japanese History)
http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/exhibitions/project/img/061003/061003_e.pdf
so I will comment on it here.
By the way, the museum is in Sakura. Tatsu, was your wife's ancestor the one who defended Sakura? (Shigetane, according to Papinot.) Is the museum possibly on the site of that castle?

The paper argues against the idea that the Portuguese brought guns to Japan, dismissing the Teppo-ki as unimportant. I will use the English translation of it in "Sources of Japnese Tradition" and the "modern" Japanese translation at the bottom of http://genjin3.web.fc2.com/details1.html.
I will trust the rekihaku article when it says that the guns in Japan were more Asian than European as I know nothing about that subject. But when they then say "The Portuguese could be on board, but the ship drifted to Tanegashima-island was Chinese one, a junk, because Gohô who was recorded to be aboard together was the name of a big boss of wakô, who were armed foreign-trade merchant groups and active around the seas of Southeast Asia at that time." I doubt it. Why did the ship that arrived at Tanegashima have to be a Wako ship? Certainly Portuguese boats arrived around that time. "No one knew what country it had come from 何れの国より来れるかを知らず" and the description is of strange people, who look different, whose manners are different, who don't use chopsticks. The two head traders are named are 牟良叔舎 and 喜利志多侘孟太, not very Chinese. Certainly there would be a Chinese interpreter on board. Goho 五峯 is described as a Chinese scholar 大明の儒生一人, who communicated by writing, not as a wako leader. Wouldn't a wako ship have people who spoke Japanese? The guns need not have been directly from Europe--maybe from India or obtained later through trading.
The paper simply dismisses most of what the Teppo-ki says (except apparently the name Goho): "But it was written in 1606, about 60 years later from the purported first arrival of gun, not in the same age. Furthermore, the purpose of writing this document was for giving tribute to his grandfather who purchased the gun. So the academic value of this document is not adequately high from the standpoint of historiography." I don't think one can just dismiss a document because it was written for a purpose. Certainly we would not have much historical material left! But looking at some details, it seems that it must have been based on records from the time.
The name 喜利志多侘 appears to be "Christian"-- the Sources of Japanese Tradition translates it that way. If Nanbo were making it up in 1606, wouldn't he have used the more common 吉利支丹? But if the Chinese Goho used, like modern standard Chinese, could not end a syllable with -n or other consonant, they probably wold need two characters 多侘 where Japanese only needs one. But I am not an expert on Portuguese pronunciation or Chinese transcriptions of the time.
However, I am sure of myself when it comes to the calendar. The ship arrived the Water-Hare year of Tenmon (1543), the 25th of the 8th month, a Fire-Bird day. 天文癸卯八月二十五日丁酉 That year the double-nine festival (9/9) was on a Metal-Boar day, so choosing this as an auspicious day , 是の歳、重九の節、日、辛亥に在り、良辰を涓取して, they tried out the weapon. (The metal teppo could be used against a field-ravaging boar. (Earlier it was mentioned that the weapon could be used against field-ravaging deer.) Now, the cyclic-day names are correct for those days, which is not surprising if the record came from 1543, as one would expect them to have a calendar for the year. But there is virtually no way the names could have been reconstructed later, and why would they even have tried? So I conclude that Nanbo used contemporary records when he wrote the Teppo-ki.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
The name 喜利志多侘 appears to be "Christian"-- the Sources of Japanese Tradition translates it that way. If Nanbo were making it up in 1606, wouldn't he have used the more common 吉利支丹? But if the wako Chinese, like standard Chinese, could not end a syllable with -n, they probably wold need two characters 多侘 where Japanese only needs one. But I am not an expert on Chinese transcriptions of the time.


It could be a very good transliteration of "Christao", which would be very Portuguese, as Portuguese often puts "-ao" at the end of Spanish words that end in "-n". But I'm not an expert on either language.

As to the ship, the Teppo-ki and the Tanegashima Kafu both describe it as a Chinese ship. At least from Lidin's translations, it seems pretty clear that it wasn't a Portuguese ship, and that the two Portuguese listed were the only two on board, otherwise they would have commented on more of them. Goho is identified as Wu-feng, a Chinese trader/pirate of note.


Quote:
However, I am sure of myself when it comes to the calendar.....So I conclude that Nanbo used contemporary written records.


I'm sure of you when it comes to the calendar too! And I agree with your assessment. I think dismissing the Teppo-ki is foolish. Lidin agrees as well.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:

As to the ship, the Teppo-ki and the Tanegashima Kafu both describe it as a Chinese ship. At least from Lidin's translations, it seems pretty clear that it wasn't a Portuguese ship, and that the two Portuguese listed were the only two on board, otherwise they would have commented on more of them. Goho is identified as Wu-feng, a Chinese trader/pirate of note.
I don't know anything about the Tanegashima Kafu. But both translations of Teppo-ki I have only call it a large ship 大船, nothing about it being Chinese. Wouldn't the people of Tanegashima be familiar with wako? Certainly I would not think that a Chinese or wako ship would get the following reaction:
"No one knew what country it had come from. It had over a hundred passengers. Their shape was different. Their language did not communicate. Those who saw them wondered. In their midst was a Ming scholar, whose name was Goho, though now we are not sure of his family name." Oribe, a man on the west coast communicated with him by writing on the sand. "'Those passengers on the ship, We don't know what country they are from. Why do they look so different?' 'They are traders of the South-west Barbarians 西南蛮種の賈胡.'" Only after the ship moved to Akaogi are we given the names of the two leaders of the traders, who have the teppo.

So the Teppo-ki certainly suggests that most of the hundred passengers were not wako. The ones who had the teppo were the 蛮種. The traders the next year who taught iron-working are also described as 蛮種の賈胡. About 五峯, couldn't there have been two people by that name? Like I said, calling a wako leader a Ming scholar seems strange, and wouldn't there be speakers of Japanese in most wako groups?

Of course, the Tanegashima Kafu, of which I know nothing, may have a very different account.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You're right, I just looked at Lidin's translation. He adds in some "context" that makes it read a bit differently. I was commenting from memory, which appears faulty. Here's what he has:

Quote:
Some years ago in the Tenbun era, on the 25th day of the eight month in the autumn of the Mizunoto U ('hare') year a big ship had arrived ad dawn at Nishi (no) mura Bay. No one knew from what country it came. There were some 100 people on board, [among whom there were those] whose physical features differed from ours, and whose language was not understood. those we saw them found them strange. Among them was a scholar from Great Ming (China). His personal name was Goho (Ch. Wu-feng), but now nothing is surely known about his family name.


The "among whom there were those" indicates to me that Lidin at least interprets the Portuguese on-board as only a much smaller part of the larger crew of 100. From that, I inferred that it was not a Portuguese ship, but that two passengers on it were Portuguese. The rest of his discussion of the event indicates this is his belief, and so that's where I got that from. His translation of the Tanegashima Kafu says almost the same thing:

Quote:
...a great ship arrived at Nishinomura. It was not known from what country it came. Among the (guests) people on board the ship were some whose physical features differed from ours, and whose language was not understood. Those who saw them found them strange. Nishimura Oribenojo Tokitsura, the chieftain of Nishinomura Village, wrote with a stick upon the sand, 'We do not know from what country those people on the ship come from.' There was a Confucian scholar from the Great Ming [on the ship], with the name Goho, and he wrote in answer: 'They are traders from among the south-western barbarians. They are not very strange.'


Again, the wording seems to indicate they are but a few in a larger group of passengers, but I fully admit after relooking it that this is unclear and conjecture. Also, the wording matches enough that one text is likely derived from the other, as I believe Lidin says. But it's late and I've got to be up in a few hours for work, so I'm not going to search for it at the moment. Consider the point ceded--at least, I agree they aren't "wako", as yes, there would have been Japanese speakers present. As to whether it's a Chinese ship or a Portuguese one, I can't conclude anything.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
By the way, the museum is in Sakura. Tatsu, was your wife's ancestor the one who defended Sakura? (Shigetane, according to Papinot.) Is the museum possibly on the site of that castle?


Yes, Shigetane is in the family tree. He was actually a Hojo vassal that was adopted by the Chiba when they became Hojo vassals and he married one of the daughters. He actually defended the 'old' Sakura castle against the Tokugawa during the siege of Odawara, was responsible for moving out many of the records and treasure before Odawara (and is to thank for those records still being around), and due to some help he rendered the Tokugawa when they were attacking a castle of the Imagawa years prior managed to keep the clan from being seppuku'd to extinction after surrendering the castle (and eventually led to some members being retained by the Ii).

The old Sakura castle was probably the biggest and most impressive castle in Japan pre-1550, and is usually known as Moto-Sakura-Jo these days (no castle now, just ruins). The Sakura-jo that has the National History Museum on the grounds is actually the one the Hotta built on the grounds of Kashima-jo (a structure the Chiba started but never finished) in the Edo period.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Teppo-ki reads …there appeared a large ship. No one knew what country it had come from. It had over a hundred passengers. Their shape was different. Their language did not communicate. Those who saw them wondered.
一大船有り。何れの国より来れるかを知らず。船客百余人、其の形、類せず。其の語通ぜず。見る者以て奇怪と為す。From the Japanese, especially the repeated negative verbs, it seems clear that the description of the passengers is part of the description of the ship. I simply cannot accept that the second half is only about two of the hundred-some people on board.
(This is not the original Japanese, which I could not find, but since it is described as "原文現代語訳", though it is clearly not modern Japanese, I take it that 上妻純一郎, very helpfully, just modernized the original (kanbun?) orthography, so it is very close to the original.)

On Lidin's understanding we would have to add the part in brackets to follow the thought.
"A large ship appeared. No one knew what country it had come from. It had over a hundred passengers. [Most of them were normal in appearance and language, but among them there were two strange men.] Their shape was different. Their language did not communicate. Those who saw them wondered. In their midst was a Ming scholar, whose name was Goho, though now we are not sure of his family name." Oribe, a man on the west coast communicated with him by writing on the sand. "'[I don't know what country the ship is from, but what I want to ask about is this.]The passengers on the ship船中の客, [I mean the two strange ones,] we don't know what country they are from. Why do they look so different?' 'They are traders of the South-west Barbarians 西南蛮種の賈胡.'"
ltdomer98 wrote:
Also, the wording matches enough that one text is likely derived from the other, as I believe Lidin says.
Teppo-ki was clearly written independently, in 1606, so if one is derived from the other, the Tanegashima Kafu (Tanegashima House records?) would naturally have used the Teppo-ki as the basis for its work, though it could have added some details from elsewhere.

Thanks, Tatsu, that was interesting.

Edit
Twice the passage mentions the "kyaku" lit. guests, of the boat, and I automatically translated it as "passengers" because the "guests" of a boat, airplane, train, etc. are the passengers, as opposed to the crew, in modern Japanese. But I checked the Kojien, and kyaku can also mean traveler (tabibito), and that would make sense here. Especially as I cannot think that that ship would have over a hunded passengers in the modern sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
(This is not the original Japanese, which I could not find, but since it is described as "原文現代語訳", though it is clearly not modern Japanese, I take it that 上妻純一郎, very helpfully, just modernized the original (kanbun?) orthography, so it is very close to the original.)


The Lidin book has the original. If I get time this evening I'll try to scan in and post.

Quote:
On Lidin's understanding we would have to add the part in brackets to follow the thought...


Agreed--I thought that's what I said, that the part written in brackets (as Lidin puts it in brackets) was added by Lidin, because of his own assumptions. Reading it, I made the same assumptions, because those brackets were there. I thought it was pretty clear that I accepted that those brackets were added by Lidin and therefore I went back on my assumption that followed it.


Quote:
Teppo-ki was clearly written independently, in 1606, so if one is derived from the other, the Tanegashima Kafu (Tanegashima House records?) would naturally have used the Teppo-ki as the basis for its work, though it could have added some details from elsewhere.


I believe that Kafu followed Teppo-ki, but I'm running out the door after 3 hours of sleep and can't confirm now.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:

The Lidin book has the original. If I get time this evening I'll try to scan in and post.
Thank you, but even more importantly please get a good night's sleep.

Quote:

Agreed--I thought that's what I said, that the part written in brackets (as Lidin puts it in brackets) was added by Lidin, because of his own assumptions. Reading it, I made the same assumptions, because those brackets were there. I thought it was pretty clear that I accepted that those brackets were added by Lidin and therefore I went back on my assumption that followed it.
Yes, I know. You said that you realized that what he said was unclear and conjecture. I was just pointing out, a bit sarcastically, how many conjectures he made.

Nanbo says that some people still remembered the events clearly, and that is possible after only sixty years.

Of course, the big claim made by the Teppo-ki is not so much that they were the first place guns were imported--it never says that--but that the Sakai manufacturing was derived from Tanegashima. If that little island wasn't a major source of the technology, why would they call the guns "tanegashima"?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Yes, I know. You said that you realized that what he said was unclear and conjecture. I was just pointing out, a bit sarcastically, how many conjectures he made.


I'm out of my way-too-early video conference and have had a bit of coffee now. Lidin did make a lot of conjectures--that's one of my major issues with his book (which I will eventually review, as I keep promising, if only this pesky "work" thing didn't suck up my time). Unfortunately, his translation here wasn't an area I caught them in, being unfamiliar with the Teppo-ki directly.

The original is in kanbun (as is the Tanegashima Kafu and the Kunitomo ki he also includes). Therefore, I'll scan them and post them as pictures, as I can't enter them in. One of these days I'll get around to learning kanbun, but not today.

Quote:
Nanbo says that some people still remembered the events clearly, and that is possible after only sixty years.


Possible, certainly. I wouldn't immediately discount memory that long, but I wouldn't take it as gospel truth, either. This isn't to discount your point at all, merely a comment on the statement. Ota Gyuichi was personally present at Nagashino, but I don't believe his account of the battle in the Shinchokoki records every detail necessary to understand exactly what happened, writing it 30 years after the fact.

Quote:
Of course, the big claim made by the Teppo-ki is not so much that they were the first place guns were imported--it never says that--but that the Sakai manufacturing was derived from Tanegashima. If that little island wasn't a major source of the technology, why would they call the guns "tanegashima"?


Agreed. As does Lidin, passionately so. Though his narrative is disjointed, he certainly has a pro-Tanegashima slant, which I find interesting. But I don't think that affects how he views the transmission--or, rather, I don't think it colors it inaccurately.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I found a photo of the first page of the Teppo-ki manuscript in the National Archives. It is written in very clear kanbun, and, like I guessed, the translation at the bottom of http://genjin3.web.fc2.com/details1.html is only a read-out version of the kanbun, like 船客百餘人。其ノ形チ不類。其ノ語不通。[I could not get all of the kanbun markers in] becomes 船客百余人、其の形、類せず。其の語通ぜず。 Also, the manuscript clearly has the cyclical day, something that translations and summaries often do not!


I had wondered why several places talked about two Portuguese being blown to Tanegashima by a storm or on a junk, which is completely at variance with the Teppo-ki and I have sorted something out.

According to the web page http://genjin3.web.fc2.com/details1.html (middle of page) and several other places, according to a 1563 Portuguese book "諸国新旧発見記 Discovery of Countries New and Old", in 1542 three Portuguese, Antonio Damotta, Antonio Beishotto, and Furanshisuko Zeimoto (sorry, I only have katakana) were on a Chinese ship going to Ryanho, when it was blown off course by a typhoon and arrived apparently in southern Tanegashima. They noted that this would be a profitable place to trade with. There is nothing about guns in the account. (Unfortunately, I cannot find a translation of the account, only a description of it by Tokoro Sôkichi所荘吉 in 鉄砲伝来前後. As we have seen, descriptions can be very unreliable. Does Lidin have a translation of it?) It is natural that this would leave no record on the Japanese side. Three strange-looking passengers on a Chinese ship would arouse only some local interest, if that.

On the other hand, the Teppo-ki says that on 1543/8/25 a ship of an unknown country (so presumably not Chinese-style) with traders of strange shape and language landed on the west coast. (There were probably South/Southeast Asians on board besides Europeans, but they too would be of strange shape and language to the Japanese.) There is no mention of their being off course or of a storm. This was reported to the head of the island, and he ended up buying two guns. The head traders were named Murashakusha and Kirishitadamota.

Apparently some people try to unify the accounts, but the details are so different that there is no sense in it. As Tokoro says, why should they be the same event? The Portuguese talk about their discovery of a new country, and the Japanese talk about the discovery of a new weapon. They did not happen at the same time. In 1542 some Portuguese in a Chinese ship landed by accident on Tanegashima, and the next year a Portuguese ship came and sold some guns there. No problem. (I do wonder, though about Tokoro when he says that Furanshisuko Zeimoto came the second time as guide, using a Chinese ship. I see no sign of that in the Teppo-ki.)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Antonio da Mossel, Francisco Zeimoto, Antonio Peixoto. An excellent article. John
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the names. Using that I came up with "The Portuguese Pioneers," by EDGAR PRESTAGE, which seems to use the "Discovery of Countries New and Old" as a source. (But he has Antonio de Mota, not da Mossel. Is the latter a typo?)

http://archive.org/stream/portuguesepionee006669mbp/portuguesepionee006669mbp_djvu.txt
EDGAR PRESTAGE
"Though the Portuguese were for a time forbidden to trade with China, the profits obtainable were so large that some could not resist the temptation, and in 1542 three men, Antonio da Mota, Francisco Zeimoto and Antonio Peixoto, started from Siam with a cargo of skins for Chincheu. On the way they encountered a typhoon laking twenty-four hours, and after it had passed, their battered junk was carried by the winds in fifteen days to islands unknown to them. Boats came out from the land containing men whiter than the Chinese but with small eyes and scanty hair, who said that those islands were called Nippon. They received the Portuguese well and, after bartering their merchandise for silver and repairing their vessel, the latter returned to Malacca. This was the first recorded visit of Europeans to Japan. "

I would still like to see what the original says, though. Does anyone have it? What kinds of skins would they be selling?

This certainly is much closer to the Teppo-ki than my impression was from Tokoro's talk about the "Discoveries". I found out that some say 牟良叔舎 is "Francisco," (since "mu"and "bu" are often interchangable, that may well be right), and so people assume 牟良叔舎 is Francisco Zeimoto. But Francisco is a very common name.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, da Mota sounds better for a Portuguese name. Even da Mosta, or da Mosto. The author, Prestage, must be right though. Chincheu?? This must be Quanzhou (Chincheu in the Hokkienese dialect)(called Zayton, T'swan-Chau or Chin-Cheu) I suspect. Coincidentally there was a ship owned by the VOC with this name. This ship used by the VOC from 1627 to 1628 is registered as 'jacht scheepstype' which is 'hunter' It was in Hirado in 1627. John
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's pretty clear that the Portuguese were not the ones who actually introduced the gun to Japan. However, they are, ultimately, the ones who mattered.

Just as Columbus was not the first European in the New World (Leif Eriksson, anyone?), he was the one who effected a change in the New World. He was the one who, historically, actually mattered. In terms of the grand scheme of things, Leif was irrelevant.

Likewise, the handful of guns in Japan before the Portuguese began making their big show was ultimately irrelevant. They were there, but there weren't enough to make a change.

But that's just me. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well said. Tony, you da man!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Well said. Tony, you da man!


I feel like I've said this before...no respeck.

/sigh
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu, thanks for stimulating the discussion. Unfortunately I haven't had time to scan the appropriate parts yet, or sift through what Lidin has to say on it to the specificity required to respond. I'll get there in the next few days. Please keep in mind that I'm not particularly wedded to how Lidin views things at all--I have several problems with conclusions he draws, mostly because I think he hand-waves a lot of things without really justifying it with facts.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Well said. Tony, you da man!


I feel like I've said this before...no respeck.

/sigh
I think it is a natural, involuntary response to say that anytime Tony dials it in like a devastating air strike. I think Tony's new nickname should be "Arc Light". He is indeed da MAN.
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