Tono vs Sama

[lordameth]

On p184 of Performing the Great Peace, Luke Roberts suggests that "-sama" was in the Edo period more honorific than "-dono." He writes that in a domain history such as the Nendai ryakki written by/for the Yamauchi clan of Tosa, the daimyo of other domains were named honorifically, using the suffix "sama", while hatamoto are named using the less-honorific suffix "dono".

Now, obviously language changes, and so it may just be my modern-Japanese sensibilities (i.e. based on the way these words are used today), but I feel like "dono" is today much more honorific than "sama." We use "sama" all the time, to refer to anyone of particularly high station, and to refer to people not of high station, who we're simply being polite to (e.g. the cashier at the convenience store calling every customer okyaku-sama, or the use of "sama" for the addressee of a letter). "Dono" meanwhile is used only extremely rarely so far as I know, and generally, to my mind at least, has a rather anachronistic ring to it.

I skimmed over a number of dictionary/encyclopedia explanations of these two terms, but none addressed the two terms in comparison, instead simply defining both as terms used to refer to other people honorifically.

So, is it simply a matter of that the language has changed? Has anyone come across any further, deeper, explanation of the hierarchy of these terms?
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My blog on Japanese art & history: http://chaari.wordpress.com

紫水晶殿 - The Amethyst Lord

[ltdomer98]

I've seen this before, though I couldn't tell you where.

I'd look at it like this, though: "Tono/-dono" is like saying "Lord". You'd use it with someone of station, but that station may be the same station as your own. Look at the way it's used in dialogue--it's often used much like we'd use "-san" today.

"-sama", for one, is never used by itself like "Tono" is. It's clearly always an appellation.

Further, look at them in comparison: you'd address the Shogun as "Ue-sama", would you not? Would you ever address him as "Ue-dono"? Clearly not. You use the highest appellation for the highest of highs.

Now, fast forward to modern Japanese: seems rather odd to call someone Lord Jones in normal conversation, right? "-dono" would be the same. Yet saying "Sir" or "Ma'am" is standard etiquette, much like "-sama", or the shortened version "-san", is in Japanese. We no longer say "Master Jones" either, or "Mistress Smith". Language changes, which you well know--and in this way it's changed similarly in English and Japanese.
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The Sengoku Field Manual Blog

[lordameth]

Ah, well, now it suddenly pops into place.

You're right - I guess you would use "Lord" including for equals, or even for people of lower station, whereas "sama" is only used for people of higher station.

So, a Maeda could call other people Uesugi-dono, or Yamauchi-dono, but would use "sama" for Tokugawa ue-sama.
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My blog on Japanese art & history: http://chaari.wordpress.com

紫水晶殿 - The Amethyst Lord

[Bethetsu]

Your title "tono vs Sama" puts the question wrong. It should be "Dono vs Sama" since "tono" is not a word used with titles and names like dono and sama are. Just think of "tono-sama."