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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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 Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| lordameth wrote: |
Wow. Interesting. I haven't heard about that part.. Sansom doesn't mention her, I'm pretty sure, or else I would have included mention of her in my S-A Wiki article on the Date Sôdô.
Based just on Sansom and Segawa Seigle, then, I hadn't seen anything about his so mistreating her. Sansom only talks about general drunkenness and debauchery.
I'd be curious to read up more about this, if you have a citation you can suggest. |
Check out 18th century Japan: culture and society By C. Andrew Gerstle--but who knows really how reliable this source is and the story-- although Gerstle states there is proof of the finger breaking.
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| heron wrote: |
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| 64. At the time of the above incident, one of the yuna (bath girls) who was working at this establishment, later became the toast of Yoshiwara and even inspired a hairstyle that was named after her. And when working at the above bath house, she performed a style of dance that was later popularized in kabuki. Who was she? |
I found the answer to 64 while looking for 63: she was called Katsuyama. The Tanzen bath house was closed after the brawl but Katsuyama moved to Yoshiwara where she caused a sensation with her dress and the famous hairstyle which was widely copied on and off the stage. |
Yes, the famous Katsuyama indeed! 
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| lordameth wrote: |
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| 60. The Megumi Kenka incident in 1804 was between who and where? |
Interesting. Not something I'd heard of before at all. Had to go look it up...
The incident, it would seem, took place at the Shiba Daijingû (Shiba Great Shrine) in Edo (somewhere in the vicinity of Zôjôji), and was a quarrel or a brawl between a sumo wrestler and a falconer. |
EDIT
You got the place right, but you are unfortunately incorrect with the other part of the answer. 
This was supposedly a pretty big deal at the time, and the incident was portrayed in ukiyo-e and the story was quite popular on the kabuki stage.
BIG MISTAKE on my part. Unfortunately Meth's answer is incorrect. I misread Meth's answer. See what you get when you read from your phone while running through a train station?  I should have read more carefully. I owe a special thanks to a certain somebody for pointing this out to me. Thank you! So this question is still open.
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Last edited by Obenjo Kusanosuke on Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| Tatsunoshi wrote: |
| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| 58. If you were a regular samurai or a commoner, what is the Japanese word for the type of inn you would stay at when traveling along the Gokaidō?[/b] |
A 脇本陣 (wakihonjin) could accept regular travelers if there were empty rooms, or a 木賃宿 (kichinyado) if they didn't need food served, but more likely 旅籠屋 (hatagoya)/旅籠 (hatago). |
Correct!! Hatago or hatagoya were more commonly used by common folk and regular, non-high ranking samurai.
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Tatsunoshi wrote: |
| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| 56. How many official stations were there along the great Gokaidō of Japan (including branch roads)? |
You'll have to define what qualifies as a branch road. Just a casual look at sources shows that Gokaido 'branches' vary from 20 to 30 or more, besides the 5 main ones. |
Check out the edited question. That should maybe make it a little clearer and a little easier!
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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60. The Megumi Kenka incident in 1804 was between who and where?
This question is still open. I did not correctly read the initial answer given for this question. Sorry Meth.
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Tatsunoshi
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
60. The Megumi Kenka incident in 1804 was between who and where?
This question is still open. I did not correctly read the initial answer given for this question. Sorry Meth. |
I saw that. I'm anxiously sitting on the right answer until tomorrow morning as one of parties involved is a personal favorite (and in a way, I think Meth was right).  |
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lordameth
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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No worries. I was just going off of an encyclopedia entry I found online:
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| 江戸芝神明の境内で力士と鳶(とび)の者が大喧嘩した事件を，め組の頭(かしら)辰五郎を主役として脚色。 |
Though, that's talking about the plot of the kabuki play, so I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't accurately reflect the actual historical occurrence.
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Bethetsu
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe you need a better dictionary.  |
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Tatsunoshi
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Bethetsu wrote: |
| Maybe you need a better dictionary. |
Kojien? |
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lordameth
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:37 am Post subject: |
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No, it's not that. Rikaichan does give firefighter as one of the definitions of 'tobi'. I made the mistake of just looking at it without the dictionary, deciding I knew what 'tobi' meant (a bird of prey), and then just sort of trying to figure it out from there. If tobi means kite, then tobi no mono must mean falconer, was my thinking. Either that or Hawkman, I suppose.
Ah, well. No paradise vacation prize trip for me.
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Tatsunoshi
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| 60. The Megumi Kenka incident in 1804 was between who and where? |
It was indeed started at Shiba Daijingû, but was between Edo's famous Megumi fire brigade (headed up by Boss Tatsugoro) and a group of sumo wrestlers (with the main instigator seeming to be Kuryu-zan). Edo firefighters unofficially were not expected to pay admission to sumo matches, but Megumi brought along someone who was a non-member and the wrestlers demanded he pay. Although a shouting match went on (with the wrestlers being supported by their samurai sponsors and the Megumi by their townsfolk peeps), Tatsugoro paid up to keep the peace-which lasted until later when the firemen went to a kabuki play. By chance Kuryu-zan was also attending and began to insult the Megumi, leading to a fight that escalated and drew in other fire brigades and sumo stables from across Edo. Tatsugoro ended up being banished from Edo but became a folk hero.
Megumi of course was the fire brigade that Wise Shogun Yoshimune hung out at while masquerading as Tokuda Shinnosuke in "Abarenbo Shogun". There was a Tatsugoro there too, and he and his boys were every bit as confrontational and thuggish as the later Megumi. Tatsugoro must have been a name passed down from one Megumi chief to the next, since obviously it wasn't the same guy (and the most famous Tatsugoro, Shinmon Tatsugoro who appeared in Jin, would have been way too young to be in the 1804 clash).
I had already known the answer for years, but held off since I figured someone else might want to try since Obenjo had obligingly provided the answer within the last couple of weeks  . |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Tatsunoshi wrote: |
| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| 60. The Megumi Kenka incident in 1804 was between who and where? |
It was indeed started at Shiba Daijingû, but was between Edo's famous Megumi fire brigade (headed up by Boss Tatsugoro) and a group of sumo wrestlers (with the main instigator seeming to be Kuryu-zan). Edo firefighters unofficially were not expected to pay admission to sumo matches, but Megumi brought along someone who was a non-member and the wrestlers demanded he pay. Although a shouting match went on (with the wrestlers being supported by their samurai sponsors and the Megumi by their townsfolk peeps), Tatsugoro paid up to keep the peace-which lasted until later when the firemen went to a kabuki play. By chance Kuryu-zan was also attending and began to insult the Megumi, leading to a fight that escalated and drew in other fire brigades and sumo stables from across Edo. Tatsugoro ended up being banished from Edo but became a folk hero.
Megumi of course was the fire brigade that Wise Shogun Yoshimune hung out at while masquerading as Tokuda Shinnosuke in "Abarenbo Shogun". There was a Tatsugoro there too, and he and his boys were every bit as confrontational and thuggish as the later Megumi. Tatsugoro must have been a name passed down from one Megumi chief to the next, since obviously it wasn't the same guy (and the most famous Tatsugoro, Shinmon Tatsugoro who appeared in Jin, would have been way too young to be in the 1804 clash).
I had already known the answer for years, but held off since I figured someone else might want to try since Obenjo had obligingly provided the answer within the last couple of weeks . |
Yup, that be it! Very good answer, Tats!  I As I mentioned this a few weeks ago on the forum, I was kind of curious to see if anybody would pick up on it. Well, anyway, good going!
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Only two questions remain unanswered from this current round. Any takers?
56. How many official stations were there along the great Gokaidō of Japan (including branch roads- specifically referring to the following roads Tōkaidō, Nakasendō, Nikkō Dōchū, Ōshū Dōchū, Kōshū Dōchū, Sayaji, Minoji, Mibudō, Reiheishidō, Mito-Sakuradō, Nikkō Onaridō, Honzaka Dōri, Yamazaki Dōri)?
65. What was the name of the rebellion in 1645-1646 that was instigated in part by the upcoming visit of the Korean embassy?
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Tatsunoshi
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| 56. How many official stations were there along the great Gokaidō of Japan (including branch roads- specifically referring to the following roads Tōkaidō, Nakasendō, Nikkō Dōchū, Ōshū Dōchū, Kōshū Dōchū, Sayaji, Minoji, Mibudō, Reiheishidō, Mito-Sakuradō, Nikkō Onaridō, Honzaka Dōri, Yamazaki Dōri)? |
I forgot I was planning on answering this once I knew which roads were involved . My answer is 248.
For the last question, haven't been able to find the name of the rebellion, only that it of course had to do with fears of a Ming/Qing 'invasion force' masquerading as a Korean Embassy (an legit embassy that was planned but didn't seem to come off). It's frustrating since I know we've either discussed it here on the forum or I've read about it in a book... |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Tatsunoshi wrote: |
| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| 56. How many official stations were there along the great Gokaidō of Japan (including branch roads- specifically referring to the following roads Tōkaidō, Nakasendō, Nikkō Dōchū, Ōshū Dōchū, Kōshū Dōchū, Sayaji, Minoji, Mibudō, Reiheishidō, Mito-Sakuradō, Nikkō Onaridō, Honzaka Dōri, Yamazaki Dōri)? |
I forgot I was planning on answering this once I knew which roads were involved . My answer is 248. |
Yes, 248 it is!!! Good going!!  Japan sure had a lot of post towns--but the the larger and more "interesting" ones were on the Tōkaidō and Nakasendō.
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lordameth
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Did we ever get an answer for #65? I've been keeping an eye out for it as I continue to research topics related to the foreign embassies in the Edo period, but haven't come across anything... I'd be curious as to the answer.
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| lordameth wrote: |
| Did we ever get an answer for #65? I've been keeping an eye out for it as I continue to research topics related to the foreign embassies in the Edo period, but haven't come across anything... I'd be curious as to the answer. |
One of the events that led up to the [Meiwa]Tenma Sōdō was that villagers in Musashi and other provinces were quite upset at having their kuniyakukin tax raised to help pay the Bakufu's expense of hosting the Korean Embassy in 1764. It helped create a tinderbox. So when soon after this, the tax on corvee labor was raised along the Nikko road to support Shogun Ieharu's pilgrimage, the peasants rioted.
See Vaporis' excellent book Breaking Barriers: travel and the state in early modern Japan.
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Bethetsu
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
65. What was the name of the rebellion in 1645-1646 that was instigated in part by the upcoming visit of the Korean embassy?
One of the events that led up to the [Meiwa]Tenma Sōdō was that villagers in Musashi and other provinces were quite upset at having their kuniyakukin tax raised to help pay the Bakufu's expense of hosting the Korean Embassy in 1764. |
???
By the way, I suppose Meiwa is the Meiwa period (1764-1772), but what is Tenma?
(Glad to see you are still around.) |
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lordameth
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks much for this!
...
Wait. If it was Meiwa, and had to do with a 1764 mission, then how was the rebellion over 100 years earlier in 1645? I'm sure it's just a typo in there somewhere, but where?
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Tatsunoshi
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| No wonder I couldn't find it! |
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lordameth
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Re: Nihonbashi
I was just skimming over the thread from the beginning, and, I know this was ages ago that it was discussed, but I don't think I ever saw a really definitive answer on this in the thread, so I thought I'd put it out there.
Despite its fame, Nihonbashi does not extend east-west across the Sumidagawa (which runs, for the most part, north-south along the eastern edge of Edo / Musashi-no-kuni). Rather, according to Tim Screech:
| Quote: |
It spanned a central waterway east of the castle. The waterway had no name, so people began to call it Nihon-bashi-gawa. |
Timon Screech. "An Iconography of Nihonbashi." in Hans Dieter Olschleger (ed.) Theories and Methods in Japanese Studies. Bonn University Press, 2007.
Its location relative to waterways can be seen pretty closely on the modern-day Google Map of Tokyo. The Sumida runs roughly north-south a short distance to the east of Nihonbashi, while Nihonbashi itself crosses a much smaller east-west waterway, the hideous view of the sky today thankfully blocked by the beautiful grey-black concrete of the Shuto Expressway.
I appreciate the idea that perhaps the Sumida used to flow in a different direction, or that the waterway has changed names over time. But, as far as I know, it hasn't.
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