O UMA JIRUSHI - help appreciated

[Bethetsu]

[evalerio]

Thanks for also pointing out Tadakuni's personal sashimono. I was wondering about that one.

[marder]

Bethetsu, Evalerio

Thanks for the input, changes made accordingly.

I have changed to O/Ko uma-jirushi on today's posts, will change existing posts when time allows.

I am not sure if the word han was in actual usage pre-Edo period or whether it was just formailzed then, maybe someone with more knowledge will post on that. I used to use the word domain or fief for pre-Ôsaka and han after but as I knew what I meant I have most of my notes now saying han.

I wasn't aware of the change to hatamoto in the Edo period, thanks for the info.

I think it may be ok but not 100% correct to say horô = tsukaiban, but definitely not to say tsukaiban = horô.

Regarding Akechi I would hazard a guess (and it is that) that it refers to an actual banner. Most Samurai armies were 50% or more "support staff" with Ashigaru assigned to many tasks, plus conscripted labour when required.

Being raised on the European system (Platoon, Company, Battalion, Regiment, Brigade, Division, Corps, Army) it takes some adjustment to adapt to the much more fluid samurai system. Two Daimyô from neighbouring fiefs could be going to war together and one provides only 100 men but the other 15000 yet both are "Generals",

Evalerio, I would like to go back when I have finished putting up the images to go back and add your illustrations where one exists. I will of course credit appropriately. have you any objections?

[evalerio]

[Bethetsu]

[Tatsunoshi]

The listing for "122. ODA TAKANAGA 1590 – 1674 織田高長" has 'Lord's Helmet' in the description line, but it appears to be extraneous (I don't see a helmet).

Also, the short bio for Oda Nobutada states he fled to Azuchi after Honnoji, was besieged by Mitsuhide, and committed suicide. I assume that's directly from Wikipedia, and it's wrong (as are many of their entries on samurai history-it's a lousy source). Nobutada was actually in Kyoto at Nijo Castle during the Honnoji incident and Mitsuhide turned his attention to him after he had dealt with Nobunaga, with the same result (Nobutada's suicide).

All in all you're putting together an impressive piece of work!

[marder]

Thanks to Bethetsu and Tatsunoshi.

3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 9 - 10 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - 17 - 18 - 19 - 21 - 23 - 24 - 120 - 122 updated.

[evalerio]

Marder,

Congratulations on finishing!

Question on #67 Kuroda Tadayuki, the image is the same as #68 Kuroda Yoshitaka.

This I think is what is missing:


It is identified as a Matsudaira in the woodblock scroll. In a book containing photos of the folding screen the set is identified as Kuroda Tadayuki. Did Tadayuki get a Matsudaira name?

The set does not match the description in the Sourcebook which says that Tadayuki 'inherited' his father's banners.

Could someone translate the set above? I will have to correct the Kuroda section in the Heraldry Gallery thread. What is that white object in the far left? It is illustrated very differently in the folding screen.

[marder]

[kitsuno]

Unlocked.
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[marder]

Cheers

Will fix now


Evalerio

Check the Sourcebook for Matsudaira Mitsuyuki!!!

Could Tadayuki be the same heraldry as his father Nagamasa (almost) and this be the Matsudaira Mitsuyki, what do you think??

[evalerio]

Marder,

The image above is for Matsudaira Mitsuyuki. The Rekishi Gunzo book identifying this as Kuroda Tadayuki is in error. I am removing my Tadayuki illustration from the Kuroda section and will be correcting them.

Nitta Nakanishi illustrated Kuroda Nagaoki (1610-1654) leading his troops during the Shimabarra Rebellion. Elements of his heraldry come from Kuroda Nagamasa. Tadayuki would be the same, displaying his father's banners.

I just updated the Seven Spears of Shizugatake section on page 1 of the Samurai Heraldry Gallery. I updated Kato Yoshiaki and added Katagiri Katsumoto and one of my favorite sets, Kato Kiyomasa.

Kuroda Yoshitaka has been updated.

[Bethetsu]

[marder]

Thanks for the input.

15 - 36 - 66 - 67 now updated.

[Bethetsu]

Here are my readings for the items on pages 2 & 3 that are different.
page 2

25 -2 O umajirushi
26 1 han sashimono 2 umajirushi

28 han sashimono; tsukaiban; jibun (=lord); umajirushi
30 - -2 umajirushi; -3 jishin (=lord) sashimono
31 -5 jibun (=lord) sashimono
32 -1 han sashimono;2 umajirushi

33 the three on the left are labeled koshirushi??, and by the middle is written "of the father and his sons, three persons (i.e. the father and his two sons)"
34 1 tsukaiban
35 hansashimono; koumajirushi; helmet;o umajirushi; tsukaiban
39 -1 han sashimono -2 "jibun" (lord)
43 han sashimono; o umajirushi ; tsukaiban
44 Inaba Mino-no-kami
-3 ? -4 tsukaiban
47 umajirushi; han sashimono
49 -3 ko umajirushi

-----
p.3
50-1 uma jirushi
51-3 tsukaiban -5 uma jirushi
52-3 han sashimono
54-3 tsukaiban sashimono [it is interesting that they specify "sashimono." most just say "tsukaiban"]
56 -1 uma jirushi
57 uma jirushi; han sashimono
58 han sashimono; o umajirushi ; tsukaiban

61- -1mono-gashira 物頭　(=ashigaru taisho?) horo -2 han sashimono -3 uma jirushi
64-4 jibun (=lord) sashimono
65 -2 han sashimono; [horo]; o umajirushi; jibun (=lord) sashimono
67 -1 tsukaiban
69 -1 han sashimono

[marder]

Bethetsu thanks!!

25 - 26 - 28 - 30 - 31 - 32 - 33 - 34 - 35 - 39 - 43 - 44 - 47 - 49 - 50 - 51 - 52 - 54 - 56 - 57 - 58 - 61 - 64 - 65 - 67 - 69 all now updated

[evalerio]

Bethetsu,
I concur. THANK YOU for the translations!

Horio and Honda Yasutoshi on page 1, Ikeda Mitsumasa on page 3 in the Samurai Heraldry Gallery have been corrected.

Marder,
The Kuroda on page 3 has been corrected and expanded. Matsudaira Mitsuyuki has been added to the Shimabarra Rebellion section.

[Bethetsu]

My readings for pp. 4 and 5

79 sashimono; umajirushi
81 -1 han sashimono
84-1 Tsukaiban, -2 han sashimono -3 Ko Uma-jirushi -4 o umajirushi
85 -4 ko umajirushi
86-2 Uma-jirushi
92 ashigaru; han sashimono; helmet; O uma-jirushi
93 han sashimono; tukaiban; jibun (=lord) sashimono, lord's helmet; o uma-jirushi
96 the horo is labeled "jibun," like the helmet
99 han sashimono; uma-jirushi; han sashimono
-----
Start p 5
101 -1?? -3 tsukaiban
102 sashimono; han sashimono; helmet; uma jirushi; ashigaru
105 -2 ??
107 -1 han sashimono -2 ko umajirushi
108 -1 ?? -4 ??
111 ??; umajirushi
112 han sashimono; han sashimono; tukaiban(!); o umajirushi

113 han sashimono; tukaiban; o umajirushi; ko umajirushi
114 -1mono gashira? -3 ko umajirushi

119 han sashimono; umajirushi
122 tsukaiban; ---; han sashibono; jibun sashimono;tsukaiban; o umajirushi


There are some I cannot read. When I have gone through once I will compare the ones I don't get and hopefully come up with the meaning. The writer likes to write the same word different ways, as you may have noticed, so perhaps I will get a clue that way.

[marder]

Bethetsu - Once again thanks!!!


UPDATED - 79 - 81 - 84 - 85 - 86 - 92 - 93 - 96 - 99 - 101 - 102 - 105 - 107 - 108 - 111 - 112 - 113 - 114 - 119 - 122


Evalerio

Excellent new illustrations.
Bethetsu will be keeping you busy with corrections?

I was looking for further evidence of the more obscure names and have found two on one of the Sekigahara screens -

Endo Yoshinobu - Picture 1, also appears to have a red disc on white sashimono.

Sakakibara Yorinao - Picture 2, may also be his nobori in front with the Sakakibara mon on white.

On the subject of Sekigahara, did you see my post on the names and bio thread - "Traitor's corner at Sekigahara" reference the Akaza, wondered if you could help?

[Bethetsu]

p. 6
125 -2 mono-gashira sashimono
133-2 tsukaiban
134-2 ashigaru
135 all OK
136 ko umajirushi; ?; o umajirushi; tsukaiban
138 -2 han sashimono
141 -2 o umajirushi; jibun (lord) sashimono; ;ko umajirushi;
145 -1 o umajirushi
146 -1 han sashimono; -2 ashigaru
148 -1 o umajirushi
end p. 6

-----------
p. 7
153-2 -1? -2 tsukaiban -3 tsukaiban sashimono -4 tsukaiban; sashimono;ko umasashimono; o umasashimono

158 -5 horo
159 horo; tsukaiban; han sashimono;

163 -3 tsukaiban; -4 tsukaiban
164 -1 tsukaiban; ko umajirushi; han sashimono
165 -1 ashigaru -3 ??
166 -5 tsukaiban
168 han sahimono; o umajirushi; monogashira sashimono; ko umajirushi
169 -2 tsukaiban
170 -3 han sashimono -4 tsukaiban
-------

[marder]

Bethetsu, once again many thanks, you have been extremely helpful.

UPDATED - 125 - 133 - 134 - 135 - 136 - 138 - 141 - 145 - 146 - 148 - 153 - 158 - 159 - 163 - 164 - 165 - 166 - 168 - 169 - 170

[Bethetsu]

This is the last of my corrections unless something else comes up.

I have figured out two words.

One is kachû no mono; kachû is 家中, those of the house; probably =samurai sashimono
The other is Teppô no mono, those who use teppô.
Note that horo, not horô, is correct. You should probably use a search function and correct it.

I am still not sure of 33 1-3. I wrote before "umajirushi??", but it is clearly sa, not ru. Could it be koshi-sashi? a sashimono stuck in the waist band?
(Could the 3 people be the lord and his two sons?)

I still cannot figure out the two in 108. Maybe I will come across the character somewhere else.

Taking into account the above,

First I said 153 in my last post, when I should have said 156 (Ieyasu). I apologize.
Ieyasu is
156 -1 kachû no mono -2 tsukaiban -3 tsukaiban sashimono -4 tsukaiban; sashimono;ko umasashimono; o umasashimono
Therefore:
153- ashigaru; o umajirushi; han sashimono; o umajirushi; ko umajirushi

Other corrections:

9-3 o umajirushi OK
13-1 ashigaru; 3 tsukaiban -5 o umajirushi

44-3 teppô no mono (those who use teppô)

72-5 teppô no mono
101-1 teppô no mono -3 tsukaiban
105-2 ashigaru OK;
111 kachû no mono;
114-1 mono-gashira OK
136-2 kachû sashimono
165-3 kachû sashimono

I am pretty sure of the readings, but it is always possible I gave you the wrong number somewhere, so if you have any questions, ask.

[evalerio]

Thank you, Bethetsu!
This is incredible. Many of the sets in my WIP files are being corrected. I've used Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook to identify many of the flags in each set. Now the Sourcebook needs to be updated!

I've checked other references (folding screen and modern illustrations of O Uma-jirushi) and many of what you've pointed out are the same there.

As example, the 'tree' in Yamauchi Kazutoyo was identified as ko uma-jirushi in The Sourcebook. It may be Tsukaiban instead. The horo and the 'tree' sharing the one label. In a Japanese pen and ink drawing of the Yamauchi set it was copied the same way, one label for both 'tree' and horo.

Marder,
I don't have anything on Akaza yet. Matsudaira (Yuki) Tadamasa has been corrected.

[evalerio]

[marder]

Bethetsu, Evalerio

Many thanks again!!!

UPDATED - 9 - 13 - 26 - 33 - 44 - 72 - 101 - 105 - 111 - 114 - 136 - 153 - 156 - 165

Horô changed to horo.