Discussion of "Learning from Shogun"

[ltdomer98]

EDIT: Here is the link to "Learning from Shogun" for those who don't have it.

http://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/learning/index.html



This is a split off of the "Samurai William" thread, which has issues all on its own (don't tempt me...). I've been reading the "Learning from Shogun" pdf, first put out as a group of essays in 1980, as a discussion by several "academics" about the novel Shogun and it's effect on those studying Japan/lessons to be learned.

Shogun has been analyzed, flayed, lauded, derided, celebrated, and lambasted on this board. For all of it's historical faults, it does a great job of introducing one to the fascinating world of Japanese Sengoku history. Many of us, myself included, first came to love Japanese history after reading Clavell's work. It's simultaneously wonderfully chock full of "history", and at the same time single-handedly responsible for the majority of the misconceptions we have to deal with on a regular basis. However, the point isn't to debate/discuss Shogun's particular faults. Reading through "Learning from Shogun", there are several major issues I've noted. I wanted to bring these up for discussion, so I'll list them here:


Loved "Japan, Jawpen, and the Attractions of the Opposite" Great article about the disconnect between reality and the "fantasy world" pictured in the book. It's okay to like it. It just isn't real, nor was it ever.

"The Struggle for the Shogunate"--Henry Smith. I felt like he missed some obvious points. pp. 53-54, he discusses the ability of samurai to kill anyone they chose within the legal limits of the law, and gives for the reason that this wasn't done as often as Clavell portrays "samurai were viewed as models of proper behavior for the population at large." Personally I doubt very much that role modeling had anything to do with it; kill off your peasants all the time for no reason, and very soon you run out of peasants to bring in rice and other crops. There's no one to tax. It's simply not economically viable to kill randomly.

p.55, in his discussion of giving Hideyoshi the name "Nakamura", he says this is a great choice because it's a common surname that bespeaks of an "everyman" background. Perhaps Clavell chose it for this reason, but I always assumed it was because Hideyoshi was born in the village of Nakamura, currently a ward of Nagoya.

pp 55-56: He makes the assertion that you could just change the names in the book from "Takashima" to Taira, "Fujimoto" to "Fujiwara", and "Minowara" to "Minamoto", and have a pretty accurate idea of the political history, with the only "exaggeration" Clavell makes being the turbulence seen in overthrowing Shogun after Shogun. Nothing could be FURTHER from the truth--all the garbage about having to be a "Minowara" or "Fujimoto" or "Takashima" in order to be named Shogun has a tenuous at best basis in Tokugawa propaganda post-1600. As has been discussed on this board multiple times, there was no need to be a descendant of any of these, though claims of descent from a "noble" (though not Kuge) family were considered desirable. The idea that Nakamura/Hideyoshi couldn't become Shogun, so had to "settle" for Kampaku/Taiko, is deep set in the Western consciousness PRECISELY because of Shogun. It mollifies me that this isn't addressed.

[Tornadoes28]

I have not read the "Learning from Shogun" essays and I will admit that I have not even read Shogun.

The issues you raised from "Learning from Shogun" all make sense so allow me to add a few more points and a couple of questions.

Regarding the ability of the samurai to kill anyone they chose within legal limits, your point makes perfect sense. In addition, I would add that why would the samurai leadership risk rousing the peasant class into rebellion by allowing samurai to kill with impunity.

I too am shocked that it was stated in the essay that Mitsuhide was killed by peasants BEFORE the battle. How could the author make that kind of error?

Regarding the title of Shikken "supposedly" awarded to Mitsuhide according to the essay author. Correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that this title was only used during the Kamakura bakufu.

My second question is, although Ashikaga Yoshiaki was effectively deposed as Shogun in 1573, since he lived until 1597, is it possible the author was saying that Mitsuhide was awarded Shikken under the still living Yoshiaki?

I recall reading (Berry?, Lamers?) that the court recognized Mitsuhide in some manner or title shortly after Honnoji but I do not recall what the honor or title was that he was given. Does anyone recall reading this?
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[kitsuno]

[Tornadoes28]

[ltdomer98]

第二：

Death and Karma: It's philosophy rather than history, so I'm not even going to touch it. I did think it was better than I anticipated.

"Learning Japanese with Blackthorne": I thought this essay was fantastic. Clearly points out the complete incomprehensibility of some of the nonsensical Japanese Clavell plucks randomly out of a dictionary, but I really enjoyed how Matisoff shows how the reader really feels identification with Blackthorne as he struggles to learn a foreign language. It's frustrating for those of us who speak Japanese to go back and read the painful examples, but at the same time, like most of the issues we have directly with Shogun, it DOESN'T MATTER to the story and the experience of the reader. Much like the misconceptions about Japanese history, they only matter when the reader believes them to be factual. Great essay.

"Paradoxes of the Samurai": There isn't too much in here that makes me cringe, but I don't think I like Mr. Smith too much. p92:

[AngusH]

[ltdomer98]

[ltdomer98]

[Tornadoes28]

[ltdomer98]

[Tornadoes28]

[Tatsunoshi]

[ltdomer98]

[Owarikenshi]

Gentlemen:

I've been lurking here and watching your discussion with amusement that the whole "Learning from Shogun" collection even exists. What self-importance! I'm sure Clavell would be shaking his head in amazement.

I was there when Shogun hit the stands (yeah, older than dirt). You're talking about a time period when all the average American knew of Japan was embellishments of their daddies' Pacific war tales (heavy on "geisha" and savagery) and the fact that they were cleaning our clock on the business battlefield. The average reader couldn't have distinguished between Ieyasu and Fu Manchu, but the idea that an arrogant Japanese might enjoy cutting down a hapless peasant was not a mental reach.

Knowing all this, Clavell set out to write something
ENTERTAINING. That he accomplished this magnificently is attested to by the fact that not only is the book still in print, we're still busily shredding his faux-pas here. Did the author want to interest people in the culture? Obviously. Did he indulge himself in creating his own parallel universe? Certainly. Did he expect anyone to take it literally as history? I seriously doubt it.

Every good writer wants their work to have a ring of authenticity. Today, with boards like this to make research easy and many people bilingual, that's a lot easier to do than it was in Clavell's time. But we could also shred Eric Lustbader novels all day, couldn't we?

Owari

[kitsuno]

[Shisendo]

I realize it's a trivial matter, but I wonder if Kasigi's name was spelled without the "h" because Clavell was using the Kunrei-shiki instead of the Hepburn system of romanization. Of course the flaw with that theory is that his bestseller would have been called Syogun.
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Over a Hedge

[Obenjo Kusanosuke]

Who cares if Kasigi should have been Kashigi or even Kasugai, as in the brand that makes those awesome wasabi peas.

Shogun is just a Yabu-dabu-doo good time. Clavell's book, like a few of Turdbull's "histories", is a good piece of fiction that made me want to delve into the realm of real samurai history, despite that fact that all samurai are God forsaken sodomites. (that was for Tatsunoshi's amusement).

Despite all it's short comings, I do re-read that book once every 5 years or so.

Tornadoes-- Shogun must be on your bookshelf- permanently. You *can't* borrow it from the library. Until a permanent copy of the book is read and placed on a bookshelf in your home, you are hereby confined to the fruit cellar--on Kasigi Yabu's orders, of course. It's either that or be boiled alive in a giant cauldron while Yabu-sama does the nasty with a boy and a courtesan. Your pick.
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[ltdomer98]

[ltdomer98]

[Tornadoes28]

[Obenjo Kusanosuke]

[ltdomer98]

No, a stack of, um, educational materials in my Dad's closet taught me that, but Shogun did introduce me to a different meaning of "toys" than I had been used to.
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[ltdomer98]

[Tornadoes28]

[Obenjo Kusanosuke]

What's the matter, Tornadoes? Henrietta isn't really all that scary. If you watch her favorite soap with her on the little TV she's got in the fruit cellar and pretend to like it, she won't suck your soul.


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Heee heee! Shita iro! Shita iro! Here comes his lordship, Baka Tono!
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