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Tai
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 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:46 am Post subject: The Korean Campaign |
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I have been reading some of Author Bryant good work and I can't fathom the reasoning behind the invasion of Choseon. Did Hideyoshi have such little intelligence on the peninsula i.e. not knowing that for a millenium they had fought invaders, yet still had evolved a distinct culture.
If that is true he should go down with G.W. as one of the most misinformed leaders[Although the Scriptures say Babylon will be a great commercial center by the great Jubilee(2027-2033)].
The one thought from the reading is he didn't care so much about conquering as he wanted a way to deplete his (warlord)Daimyo's strength.
As I watched Tenchijin [finale is tommorrow Nov 22,2009]I thought These guys all knew this was a worthless campaign. I feel the Choseon/China endevour brought disloyalty to the Teritomi, and gave the Matsudaira the leg up.
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Whoa, like dude, unless you are really somehow trying to link this to Himiko's military expedition to Korea in the really old days of lore, then this thread shouldn't be in the Ancient Japan through Heian period forum.
Not sure what flavor Kool Aid they are serving up at the CHF these days, but TOYOTOMI (not Teritomi) Hideyoshi wasn't interested in conquering Korea per say, he had his eye on China-- that was the so-called objective. Korea was requested to provide unhindered access to the border and help out, which of course was rejected. This is what brought Japan into direct military conflict with Korea. The Japanese figured they'd now have to fight their way through Korea to get to China.
As to what were Hideyoshi's actual motives for the invasion of the Asian mainland? Who knows? Was it really to conquer China? Give his restless samurai an outlet to channel aggression and to carve out new fiefs to keep them happy? Was it to bleed the men and resources of potential daimyo threats to Toyotomi rule? Maybe. Nobody knows for sure what was going on in the head of Hideyoshi because he kinda lost his marbles. But one thing is sure-- for me to be reading a statement that compares Hideyoshi to GW Bush and to make reference to Scripture so early in the morning, isn't the best way to start off the day. 
And if you really want to read about Hideyoshi's invasions of Korea, then you should read the two following books:
Samurai Invasion by Stephen Turnbull (probably his best work among a collection of largely other forgetables he's written while sleep walking) and The Imjin Warby Samuel Hawley
Reading these books in tandem will give you a well balanced perspective of the military and political side of the conflict.
Anyway, I'm moving this thread.
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lordameth
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Did Hideyoshi have such little intelligence on the peninsula i.e. not knowing that for a millenium they had fought invaders, yet still had evolved a distinct culture. |
I think Hideyoshi actually had pretty good intelligence, particularly given the assistance of the Sô clan of Tsushima, who had been managing trade and diplomatic relations with Korea for some time, and who were regarded by the Korean royal court as vassals.
Hideyoshi likely knew that Korea was smaller than Japan, and had succumbed to foreign invasion before - from the Mongols, at least, if not on other occasions - where the Japanese had not been successfully invaded or conquered for at least a millennium. He trusted in the skills and abilities of his samurai, both on land and at sea. You have to remember, this comes on the heels of successfully taking over the entire country, suppressing opposition from Kantô (and Tôhoku? I don't actually know the details all that well) to Kyûshû. Hideyoshi had a majorly large and capable army behind him, which had seen major victories in the previous 5-10 years.
In the end, from what I understand, it was the Ming army that was the deciding factor in the Korean victory (just as it was the Chinese support that effected N. Korean victory in the 1950s) - not some legendary Korean ability unto themselves. Hideyoshi may have totally underestimated the size and strength of China and its armies, but I don't think his invasions of Korea reflect any particularly delusional or misguided notions about the size or strength of Korea.
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Tornadoes28
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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George W. Bush and Toyotomi Hideyoshi--two of the most misinformed leaders in history. 
I've never heard that one before. Maybe the first time ever that anyone has compared GW and Hideyoshi.
Regarding the depleting the daimyo theory, how was Ieyasu able to avoid having to send his forces to Korea. Why did Hideyoshi allow this?
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AJBryant
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Tornadoes28 wrote: |
| Regarding the depleting the daimyo theory, how was Ieyasu able to avoid having to send his forces to Korea. Why did Hideyoshi allow this? |
While I am generally favorably disposed to the "keep the samurai busy and deplete daimyo resources" theory,you have indeed put your finger on the biggest problem with that theory. Of *all* the daimyo in Japan, I can't imagine the Tokugawa being left out of this one. So why did Hideyoshi cut Ieyasu so much slack?
It's a very annoying question.
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Tornadoes28
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| AJBryant wrote: |
| Tornadoes28 wrote: |
| Regarding the depleting the daimyo theory, how was Ieyasu able to avoid having to send his forces to Korea. Why did Hideyoshi allow this? |
While I am generally favorably disposed to the "keep the samurai busy and deplete daimyo resources" theory,you have indeed put your finger on the biggest problem with that theory. Of *all* the daimyo in Japan, I can't imagine the Tokugawa being left out of this one. So why did Hideyoshi cut Ieyasu so much slack?
It's a very annoying question. |
Especially since Hideyoshi "depleted" one of his strongest supporters, the Uesugi, by sending their forces to Korea. Hmmm 
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lordameth
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Not to mention the fact that, once Ieyasu took over, suddenly there no longer seemed to be a need for keeping the daimyo busy and depleting their resources... with the exception of allowing the Shimazu to let off steam against Ryukyu.
Remember, it wasn't until the 1630s or so that sankin kôtai was implemented, so for a whole 30 years or so, there was no need to launch a Korean campaign or to otherwise "keep the daimyo busy".
Of course, on the other hand, if we do put stock in this "keeping the daimyo busy" theory, then it creates neat parallels between the 1590s and the 1870s.
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Tornadoes28
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| lordameth wrote: |
Not to mention the fact that, once Ieyasu took over, suddenly there no longer seemed to be a need for keeping the daimyo busy and depleting their resources... with the exception of allowing the Shimazu to let off steam against Ryukyu.
Remember, it wasn't until the 1630s or so that sankin kôtai was implemented, so for a whole 30 years or so, there was no need to launch a Korean campaign or to otherwise "keep the daimyo busy".
Of course, on the other hand, if we do put stock in this "keeping the daimyo busy" theory, then it creates neat parallels between the 1590s and the 1870s. |
They were kept busy building Edo Castle for a while.
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AJBryant
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Tornadoes28 wrote: |
| Especially since Hideyoshi "depleted" one of his strongest supporters, the Uesugi, by sending their forces to Korea. Hmmm |
That's a very good point.
That, and leaving Ieyasu out of it, have always been key stumbling blocks to the "deplete the daimyo's power" argument.
It's a pity, too, as that argument would be a great rationale otherwise.
Tony
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Tornadoes28
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| AJBryant wrote: |
| Tornadoes28 wrote: |
| Especially since Hideyoshi "depleted" one of his strongest supporters, the Uesugi, by sending their forces to Korea. Hmmm |
That's a very good point.
That, and leaving Ieyasu out of it, have always been key stumbling blocks to the "deplete the daimyo's power" argument.
It's a pity, too, as that argument would be a great rationale otherwise.
Tony |
I do not believe the depleting the daimyo theory. I feel Hideyoshi truly believed it was Japan's (his) destiny to subjugate China. I still do not understand why the Tokugawa were not sent though. Maybe there was more to Hideyoshi's relationship with Ieyasu than is popularly believed.
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Tatsunoshi
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| lordameth wrote: |
| I think Hideyoshi actually had pretty good intelligence... |
On some matters, perhaps, but as we've examined in other threads on the Bunroku Invasion he was was deliberately misinformed on many matters by the So. It also seems the Japanese had nary a clue as to the strength of the Korean navy (even though I'm not a big supporter of the 'Admiral Yi won the war' faction) and the superiority of their ships (and I'm talking just the regular ones-not the handful of turtle boats that came later). It's only by a huge stroke of luck that they were able to make their intial landings without getting decimated.
| meth wrote: |
| In the end, from what I understand, it was the Ming army that was the deciding factor in the Korean victory... |
Not. Even. Close. And it has nothing to do with the generally dismal performance by Ming troops during the conflict. By the time self interest prompted the Ming to enter the fray, the Japanese were for all practical purposes already defeated by the Koreans. A large army without supply is nothing more than a huge crowd of victims. The Japanese had been denied the western shore of Korea for resupply by sea, and the sea lanes between Japan and Korea were also under attack. The Righteous Armies and local guerrilas managed to make each mile that supplies had to go over a chore, and Japanese troops were spread out in order to safeguard a narrow corridor that was extremely vulnerable to attack-making any spot along the way more vulnerable to a concentrated attack. This all happened in some of the roughest terrain on Earth in some of the worst weather imaginable, and with disease ravaging the Japanese further. Even with all this, the Ming's first assault was crushed. By the time of the second one, Konishi was looking for any excuse to shorten his supply line and get the hell out of his exposed position-and the Ming still had a new one ripped for them during the campaign.
Despite the bumbling of the Ming, their numbers and presence had an impact on shortening the war (even though they negotiated for themselves and treated the Koreans much like the Japanese did), but they surely weren't the deciding factor.
We'll probably be returning to this in the weeks to come as we dissect Kenny Swope's new Korean invasion book down to its bones. |
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Bethetsu
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| Tornadoes28 wrote: |
| Regarding the depleting the daimyo theory, how was Ieyasu able to avoid having to send his forces to Korea. Why did Hideyoshi allow this? |
The easiest theory is that Ieyasu was too powerful to be forced.  |
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lordameth
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:56 am Post subject: |
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Interesting. I must admit, I haven't read much about Hideyoshi's invasions. But this was just the impression I'd gotten. Definitely most interesting... thanks for the correction.
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| lordameth wrote: |
| Interesting. I must admit, I haven't read much about Hideyoshi's invasions. But this was just the impression I'd gotten. Definitely most interesting... thanks for the correction. |
You were directed fairly recently to the threads containing info about the Sō and the role they played in the run-up to the Korean invasions. That location also contains all the threads, that discuss in detail, issues surrounding the first invasion.
| Tornadoes28 wrote: |
| Especially since Hideyoshi "depleted" one of his strongest supporters, the Uesugi, by sending their forces to Korea. Hmmm |
You know if this was true, I just may be able to agree with you.  You must, and I repeat, must stop taking what you see in taiga dramas at face value. You really have a penchant for getting suckered by reel history, especially as it is portrayed in the Naoe Kanetsugu taiga. The Uesugi didn't go to Korea. PERIOD. Kagekatsu's troops were sent to Hizen-Nagoya Castle as reserves, as were many of Ieyasu's. Ieyasu wasn't completely sleeping during the Korean campaigns. He was nominally in charge of the 75,000 reserve force that was based at Hizen-Nagoya.
I just don't know how people can post here without first looking things up. Sure, mistakes are okay, as we all make them, but I can't tolerate lazy historians, whether they are supposed to be pros, pros in the making, or even amateur ones. Are people that lazy as to rely on impressions and what they see on TV as fact? Scholarship has gone to the birds at the SA. I really am appalled. I've tried jokingly nudging people to level up their games, but it just doesn't seem to work. I'm sorry, but I have to take a stand and I do expect better from the more active posters here on the forum.
If I am expecting too much, well, maybe we should just call this the Samurai Archives Citadel of Misinformation Forum and I should just resign, leaving people to post whatever they want. I'm sure some of you would like that, but don't hold your breath. We are all here because we like Japanese history (okay, some of you are here more because you like samurai films) but I do expect improvements in the quality of scholarship. People can't criticize Turdbull in one breath and turn around and post something just as erroneous as he would in the next. It just isn't right.
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JLBadgley
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:06 am Post subject: |
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Meth, I have to admit that the defeat at the hands of the Ming was definitely the way I first learned it--I think because it was the easiest way to describe it in a one-year survey of East Asian history. As with so many things, the truth is much more complex.
I really tend to think that the Japanese would have fared better had they been more coordinated and less competitive--then again, "what ifs" are fun but usually futile.
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AJBryant
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| Kagekatsu's troops were sent to Hizen-Nagoya Castle as reserves, as were many of Ieyasu's. Ieyasu wasn't completely sleeping during the Korean campaigns. He was nominally in charge of the 75,000 reserve force that was based at Hizen-Nagoya. |
That's the thing, though. Hideyoshi had pulled forces that could have put a check on Ieyasu way the hell and gone away from the north of Honshu.
It was a *really* dangerous move, potentially.
I really have to wonder what was holding everything together. Ieyasu would have had a hell of a time *holding* things if he *did* try to move on the Taikô, but he *could* have crushed the Toyotomi hegemony. Of course, he would probably have lost in the long run, and Japan probably would have descended *again* into random civil war as everyone tried to get what they could.
This is where Ieyasu's famous patience paid off.
I think Hideyoshi possibly knew Ieyasu *could* have caused serious trouble, but he also knew Ieyasu would ultimately lose in the following orgy of vengeance and self-interested hostility, and that Ieyasu didn't like to lose. But if he *did* know Ieyasu was still a threat -- even if only a "patient" one, I still just can't wrap my head around his plan to take China. He *must* have known that a large number of samurai loyal to him would be killed.
Ultimately, Sekigahara was a close thing. Had the Korean campaigns not taken place, I fully expect that the Toyotomi loyalists would have won, based on (1) surviving numbers, and (2) fewer daimyo disaffected by the actions that Mitsuhide would not have taken as overseer as there was no campaign to oversee.
I'd have to do some more reading and more thinking about it, but the more I consider it, the more I think the ultimate reason Ieyasu became shôgun (that is, one of the most critical factors in that historical outcome) was that Hideyoshi thought he could take China.
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Tatsunoshi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| AJBryant wrote: |
| ...and (2) fewer daimyo disaffected by the actions that Mitsuhide would not have taken as overseer as there was no campaign to oversee. |
Should this be (Ishida) Mitsunari, or is this a different person you're speaking of?
And personally, I'd think Osprey would be happy to have you back-and we'd be happy, too. |
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Mencius
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, it's hard to say why he did it. I'm not so sure of the "weaken my enemies" argument for the reasons given already.
It's credible to say that it was a mixture of potential conquest of China and keeping angry samurai occupied. Like the Crusades in many respects, though without the religious element.
Whatever the reason(s), he'd clearly lost the plot - which is why it's so hard to be sure why he did it. |
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lordameth
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| You were directed fairly recently to the threads containing info about the Sō and the role they played in the run-up to the Korean invasions. That location also contains all the threads, that discuss in detail, issues surrounding the first invasion. |
Just because I've been pointed in the direction of something doesn't mean I have the time or the energy to read through all of it.
| Quote: |
| I just don't know how people can post here without first looking things up. |
I appreciate your frustrations and your attitudes about lazy historians, but I'm afraid that if the option is to post and get harassed & criticized, or to not post until I've read up on all the relevant information, then I'm afraid I have no choice but to take the second option. I'll see you in a few years, after I've found the time to read a few hundred books or whatever, and learned enough to feel I can come back here without being harassed and criticized for my lack of expertise.
This is supposed to be a recreational, fun thing to engage in on the side. After spending the entire day doing readings for class on the representation of Japan at the 1904 St Louis World's Fair (a most fascinating topic, actually), on Persian paintings, and other subjects, and then relaxing with the Okinawa 1609 book... having read countless things about everything from kabuki to ukiyo-e to gusuku to the Nihonmachi of Southeast Asia in recent months, I'm sorry that my knowledge of the Imjin War didn't live up to your standards. We can't all be perfect, like you, oh Lord of the Benjo. 
I'll make an effort from here on to not post at all.
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Tornadoes28
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Lordameth, unfortunately I believe I was the one that pushed Obenjo over the edge with my error stating that the Uesugi were in Korea. I apologize for that error.
But I assume I am not the only one to have posted an incorrect fact and so I assume he may have be pointing his comment at others as well.
It's a tough one. We all of course don't want to post something inaccurate. But like you said, the other option is to read several (dozen?) books and become an expert on a specific topic before ever posting anything.
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| lordameth wrote: |
Just because I've been pointed in the direction of something doesn't mean I have the time or the energy to read through all of it.
I appreciate your frustrations and your attitudes about lazy historians, but I'm afraid that if the option is to post and get harassed & criticized, or to not post until I've read up on all the relevant information, then I'm afraid I have no choice but to take the second option. I'll see you in a few years, after I've found the time to read a few hundred books or whatever, and learned enough to feel I can come back here without being harassed and criticized for my lack of expertise.
This is supposed to be a recreational, fun thing to engage in on the side. After spending the entire day doing readings for class on the representation of Japan at the 1904 St Louis World's Fair (a most fascinating topic, actually), on Persian paintings, and other subjects, and then relaxing with the Okinawa 1609 book... having read countless things about everything from kabuki to ukiyo-e to gusuku to the Nihonmachi of Southeast Asia in recent months, I'm sorry that my knowledge of the Imjin War didn't live up to your standards. We can't all be perfect, like you, oh Lord of the Benjo.
I'll make an effort from here on to not post at all. |
How childish. This is not the response I was looking for, but if you think I am being tough on you, wait until you go for a doctorate and you get grilled. Open your eyes!
You are held to a higher standard by me and others based on what you are studying and what you aspire to be. Unfair? I don't think so. Do I think you are sloppy? Perhaps. Do I think you are lazy? I don't know. I can only form impressions by what I see here on the SA. Do I think you have the potential to be a dreadful academic or historian? Yes. Do I think you have the potential to be a very good academic or historian? Yes. I of course wish you to be the best kind of historian/academic out there. But you are free to become whatever kind of historian/academic/curator you want to be.
And if you want to stop posting here, that is also up to you.
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AJBryant
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Tatsunoshi wrote: |
| AJBryant wrote: |
| ...and (2) fewer daimyo disaffected by the actions that Mitsuhide would not have taken as overseer as there was no campaign to oversee. |
Should this be (Ishida) Mitsunari, or is this a different person you're speaking of? |
Doh. Mitsunari. What the hell?
Sigh.
Mitsunari. Mitsunari. Mitsunari. There. I've fixed myself. 
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Tatsunoshi
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| AJBryant wrote: |
Doh. Mitsunari. What the hell?
Sigh.
Mitsunari. Mitsunari. Mitsunari. There. I've fixed myself. |
Now if I can just consistently differentiate between Ishida and Ishido from Shogun, we'll all be good to go  . |
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Tatsunoshi
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| ...especially as it is portrayed in the Naoe Kanetsugu taiga. The Uesugi didn't go to Korea. |
This happens a lot with the Korean invasion-I just watched a Date Masamune made-for-TV movie that had him and his forces in the middle of the fighting during the conflict. |
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