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Obenjo Kusanosuke Suo no Kami
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 4503 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: Shogun Iesada and his letter to President Pierce |
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I was watching NHK’s Atsuhime last night and it covered Harris’ meeting with Shogun Iesada, which had me in stitches. Oh, that whacky Iesada! I'm going to miss him when he dies! But seriosuly. Watching the portrayal of that face-to-face meeting got me to thinking about the written diplomatic note that Iesada addressed, in English (not Dutch!), to President Franklin Pierce in May 1858.
I found a copy of the note in “As We Saw Them” by Masao Miyoshi, which is proving to be a good read.
To his Majesty Franklin Pierce,
President of the United States of America
&ca &ca &ca
I Minamoto IëSada, Taikoon of the Japanese Empire respond with satisfaction to what you have lately at times written in relation to peace and friendship between both Empires, and make known to you my honest-gratification at the Mission of his Excellency Townsend Harris Consul General of the United States of America with your friendly letter, which has been placed before in relation to the opening of Commerce and the hence forth enduring Peace between both nations, but the impossibility of the speedy exchange of ratifications of this seasonable Treaty arises from the circumstances that it is requisite that the gathering and consultation of my whole Empire take it into favorable consideration.
I wish your Majesty good fortune in the prosperity of your Empire.
The sixth day of the fifth Month of the fifth year of Ansei Tsutsenoye Uma
Although the English wasn’t great by a long shot, I found this interesting as all verbal negotiations were still officially conducted in Dutch at this time. English wasn’t used until the 1870s. At least the Japanese were trying to put a diplomatic note into English. You have to wonder when the Americans and the Europeans first tried drafting a note in Japanese?
Back to Iesada himself. Was he a fool or really nobody’s fool—just an extremely weird and eccentric guy? I’m not asking this already knowing the answer. I’m asking this because I really want to know what people think. I’ve been discussing this with a few people since the weekend about the role he played in the negotiations with the US and it has been hard to reach a consensus. Please, share your opinions! _________________
Heee heee! Shita iro! Shita iro! Here comes his lordship, Baka Tono!
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heron 萩守 Veteran Member 2009 Benefactor


Joined: 27 Jan 2007 Posts: 1080 Location: Australia
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Most opinion seems to hold that Iesada was physically and intellectually disabled in some way: he could read but his ability to speak was severly limited. He only spoke through his mother or nurse. He liked to cook beans for his retainers, play with his kittens or chase his retainers with a gun fitted with a bayonet. (George Feifer: Breaking open Japan). In Harris’ journal (quoted by Donald Keene) The tycoon began to jerk his head backwards over his left shoulder at the same time stamping with his right foot. This was repeated three or four times.
I can’t find anything that suggests he was any sort of statesmen or negotiator but I’ve only looked at the sources in English that I’ve got to hand. Maybe the Japanese tradition is different...
The letter might have been translated by Harris’ interpreter, Henry Heusken, who was engaged precisely because he spoke Dutch. However he was often completely frustrated by his duties as the Japanese interpreters did not speak much Dutch, and what they did speak was fairly archaic.
I don’t know how much Japanese Heusken spoke: probably very little at this stage though there are references to his ability in Japanese before his death.
You can visit his grave in Tokyo:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~daikoku/junrei/reijo/bangai-4.htm |
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shikisoku Osumi no Kami
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Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 2445 Location: 天領 Tama
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: |
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It seemed Iesada had some kind of handicap.
The doctor who wrote "The 15 Tokugawa Shogun's Carte" described the simpton "The tycoon began to jerk his head backwards over his left shoulder at the same time stamping with his right foot." was athetosis. _________________
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Obenjo Kusanosuke Suo no Kami
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 4503 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| shikisoku and Heron wrote: |
| "The tycoon began to jerk his head backwards over his left shoulder at the same time stamping with his right foot." |
The NHK Taiga portrayed this incident as Iesada doing a little bit of kabuki. I'm not joking! Seriously, I also thought Iesada was mentally and somewhat physically challenged. However, after looking at some of his drawings and other artistic endeavors at the recent Atsuhime exhibit at the Edo-Tokyo Museum, I started having some doubts. He had quite a bit of talent which indicates he had to have a high degree of control over his body and his mental faculties.
In regards to the letter to President Pierce, the letter was actually presented to Harris in English. It was one of the rare occasions that a diplomatic note was passed in English prior to the 1870s. On the other hand, when a letter "from" Shogun Iemochi was later addressed to President Buchanan to go along with the first Japanese embassy to the US, it was drafted in Japanese, verbally translated into Dutch by the Japanese interpreter Nomura Gohachiro and then again verbally translated into English by the American Dutch-English translator, A.C. Portman. Again, all this comes from Masao Miyoshi's book. _________________
Heee heee! Shita iro! Shita iro! Here comes his lordship, Baka Tono!
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Dash101 Fukusho
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 Sonnooh Yeah!


Joined: 03 Dec 2007 Posts: 776 Location: Setagaya, Tokyo
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: |
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In the book, The Nature and Origins of Japanese Imperialism, the author quotes a source on p.53 (Takekoshi 1967, Vol 3:304) saying that Iesada "Was little better than an imbecile".
Its also been written in most literature that it was because of his mental retardation that he was physically unable to have kids hence the need for Ii Naosuke to step in.
It would be a revelation to me personally if Iesada was infact a gifted artist. Very interesting... |
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shikisoku Osumi no Kami
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Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 2445 Location: 天領 Tama
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The NHK Taiga portrayed this incident as Iesada doing a little bit of kabuki. |
Yes I watched it!
Iesada on NHK Atsuhime is a sharp man who pretends to be a retard. _________________
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Obenjo Kusanosuke Suo no Kami
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 4503 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| shikisoku wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The NHK Taiga portrayed this incident as Iesada doing a little bit of kabuki. |
Yes I watched it!
Iesada on NHK Atsuhime is a sharp man who pretends to be a retard. |
I choked on my after dinner cup of coffee while watching this and nearly slid off the couch with laughter. What was your reaction to Iesada's kabuki act?
I've been looking at my Atsuhime exhibition catalog this evening just to see Iesada's art work. I half-heartedly tried finding pictures of his work on the Internet, but didn't have any luck. Otherwise, I'd post the pics! _________________
Heee heee! Shita iro! Shita iro! Here comes his lordship, Baka Tono!
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heron 萩守 Veteran Member 2009 Benefactor


Joined: 27 Jan 2007 Posts: 1080 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| shikisoku wrote: |
It seemed Iesada had some kind of handicap.
The doctor who wrote "The 15 Tokugawa Shogun's Carte" described the simpton "The tycoon began to jerk his head backwards over his left shoulder at the same time stamping with his right foot." was athetosis. |
It does sound like some form of cerebral palsy. |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke Suo no Kami
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 4503 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: |
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While reading Agitated Japan by H. Satoh in preparation for the Ii Naosuke discussion, I came across the following passage about Iesada on pg 49.
Satoh writes:
Iyésada, who was of remarkably reserved nature, did not support the candidacy of Prince Hitotsubashi. This Shōgun has been taken for a weak-minded man. The account given of him, however, by those who were admitted into his confidence fully contradict popular notions concerning his intellectual capacities, and show clearly that he was in full possession of at least ordinary intelligence.
So, what exactly can be concluded about Iesada? Was he physically and mentally challenged or just really an oddball? _________________
Heee heee! Shita iro! Shita iro! Here comes his lordship, Baka Tono!
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JLBadgley Iki no Kami
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Joined: 09 Apr 2007 Posts: 1571 Location: Washington, DC, USA
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Gifted artistically != mentally competent. He could have had some kind of autism, I guess.
In "The Last Shogun" he is depicted as a little simple and overly controlled by his mother, who may have turned him against Hitotsubashi Keiki. Of course, from what I can tell, Keiki seems to have been very good about creating a reputation without even trying, considering that he was the poster child for Mito (at least initially).
I haven't seen enough, but considering the circumstances I would not be surprised if he were quite weak-willed, in general, and not fit to lead. If he was an intelligent manipulator, he certainly didn't seem to do much good for the Bakufu, which is why I think that, at the very least, he was overly susceptible to control by others.
-Josh |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke Suo no Kami
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 4503 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Weak-willed, weak-minded, easily manipulated by others, strange, incompetent as a ruler, immature, indecisive, plain old weird--yes!! I'd say all of these traits are probably correct when it comes to describing Iesada.
I think that if Iesada was physically disabled or handicapped with a palsy-like condition, he never could have become shogun. Within daimyo families, wasn't a physical handicap or defect grounds for a first-born son being passed up as heir in favor of a younger sibling? Or at the very least a good case for outside adoption of a second, third, or fourth son from another daimyo family based on the laws of succession in Edo-period Japan? Didn’t the same apply to the Tokugawa? Hence the establishment and special status of the Kii, Owari and Mito branches?
I really have my doubts now about Iesada being physically challenged and while he may not have been the sharpest katana on the rack, he wasn't totally mentally or intellectually deficient as proven by my above posts. If anyone else finds more info about Iesada and his wits or lack of them, by all means, please post them here! _________________
Heee heee! Shita iro! Shita iro! Here comes his lordship, Baka Tono!
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JLBadgley Iki no Kami
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Joined: 09 Apr 2007 Posts: 1571 Location: Washington, DC, USA
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Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: |
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Well, if Shiba Ryotaro is correct, he *was* going to be passed over, but Ieyoshi died before naming a clear successor. Thus it was his wife, O-mitsu, mother of Iesada, and the anti-Mito faction within the Bakufu, that secured Iesada as shogun.
I tend to agree that there probably was nothing *obviously* physically wrong. On the other hand, the turning of the head and stamping of the foot could easily have been something mental, not physical.
Granted, I don't have much other evidence, and Ryotaro's book is fairly slanted in favor of Keiki.
-Josh |
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Bethetsu Izu no Kami
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Joined: 14 May 2006 Posts: 1274 Location: Center of Musashi
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
I think that if Iesada was physically disabled or handicapped with a palsy-like condition, he never could have become shogun. Within daimyo families, wasn't a physical handicap or defect grounds for a first-born son being passed up as heir in favor of a younger sibling? Or at the very least a good case for outside adoption of a second, third, or fourth son from another daimyo family based on the laws of succession in Edo-period Japan? Didn’t the same apply to the Tokugawa? Hence the establishment and special status of the Kii, Owari and Mito branches?
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What about Yoshimune's son, the shogun Ieshige? He definately had a speech problem, perhaps cerebral palsey. He was not the son of a wife (seishitsu); he also had two younger brothers. Yoshimune probably could have passed him over easily enough, in fact people sometimes wonder why he didn't, but he obviously didn't have to. |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke Suo no Kami
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 4503 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Bethetsu,
You have a point about Ieshige, and I was aware of his condition as I was writing all of the above. You pose a very good question about why he wasn't passed up, but that is perhaps a an excellent topic for a new thread at some point.
However, I am still looking for that elusive nugget of truth that will tell us what was the real situation regarding Iesada's mental and physical condition. _________________
Heee heee! Shita iro! Shita iro! Here comes his lordship, Baka Tono!
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Dash101 Fukusho
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 Sonnooh Yeah!


Joined: 03 Dec 2007 Posts: 776 Location: Setagaya, Tokyo
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:31 am Post subject: |
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Bump!  |
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