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Tatsunoshi
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 Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading... |
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What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading the Roshigumi and going to Kyoto?
Kiyokawa’s plan began with organizing the Roshigumi under the auspices of guarding the Shogun, Tokugawa Iemochi, during his stay in Kyoto in 1863 (where Iemochi was slated to meet with the Emperor to discuss the problem of foreign intrusion into Japan). This allowed him to transport a large body of ronin from Edo to Kyoto (something which might have proved difficult to pull off had it not been cleared by the Shogunate), not to mention doing it at the expense of the Bakufu’s coffers. Once there, he wasted no time in revealing his true motive. Kiyokawa was a proponent of sonno-joi (Revere the Emperor, Expel The Barbarians, although by this time he might have moved on to Revere The Emperor, Destroy The Bakufu-or more likely a combination of both). He drafted a statement to the Imperial court that effectively put the entire Roshigumi at Emperor Komei’s disposal, and conned the majority of the Roshigumi membership into signing it (I believe this was done after it was presented to the Emperor and accepted-the majority of the members signed because they saw this Imperial sanction as a great honor and didn’t think of the political implications). In effect, he had stolen Shogunate sponsored troops right out from under the Shogun’s nose and made them into Loyalists-with all the bills being paid by the Shogun. Of course, the Shogunate was not without schemers of its own-and Kiyokawa found himself checked in short order and dead not long thereafter. But that’s a topic for another question…
Last edited by Tatsunoshi on Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| Tatsunoshi wrote: |
What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading the Roshigumi and going to Kyoto?
(More to come in an hour) |
Not fair Tatsunoshi! You are probably at home surrounded by your sources, while I am at an automaker's genkan waiting for my taxi to take me back to the Shinkansen station!!! I want to play, too! 
Before my taxi comes, my guess is as follows:
To get Tokugawa funding to form his own loyalist, pro- sonno joi army, which he would present at the court, and then while in Kyoto, he wanted to get an imperial edict ordering him to lead the vanguard of the coming fight against the gaijin. What he was also essentially doing was creating a cancerous cell within the bakufu to destroy it from within-- he would use the Roshigumi to fight the bakufu if it came down to the fact that bakufu had no plans/will to wage a war against the hated foreigners. Kiyokawa would use the Roshigumi as an instrument of sonno joi in accordance with the Emperor's wishes, which never materialized, so it was back to Edo he went.
The bakufu knew what Kiyokawa was up to all along, and once it became policy to pay only lip service to the idea of expelling the foreigners, allowing Kiyokawa to live would be like letting a malign tumor grow from within. And for that reason, Kiyokawa was terminated with *extreme prejudice*. 
Again, this is just my theory and I don't have any of my books with me to double-check this against. |
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kitsuno
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Joined: 04 May 2006
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Location: Honolulu, HI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
Again, this is just my theory and I don't have any of my books with me to double-check this against. |
Next week I'll stipulate that people can't grab a question without immediately answering it, but since I didn't do that this time, Tatsunoshi will still have to throw his answer in here, and you will still have to answer ANOTHER QUESTION  |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
Suo no Kami
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2009 Benefactor
Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 4503
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| kitsuno wrote: |
| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
Again, this is just my theory and I don't have any of my books with me to double-check this against. |
Next week I'll stipulate that people can't grab a question without immediately answering it, but since I didn't do that this time, Tatsunoshi will still have to throw his answer in here, and you will still have to answer ANOTHER QUESTION |
Fine! Have it your way!  (Do you remember that BK slogan *have it your way*? That goes back a long, long time ago in a television land far away....)  |
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Tatsunoshi
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Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| Tatsunoshi wrote: |
What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading the Roshigumi and going to Kyoto?
(More to come in an hour) |
Not fair Tatsunoshi! You are probably at home surrounded by your sources, while I am at an automaker's genkan waiting for my taxi to take me back to the Shinkansen station!!! I want to play, too!
Before my taxi comes, my guess is as follows:
To get Tokugawa funding to form his own loyalist, pro- sonno joi army, which he would present at the court, and then while in Kyoto, he wanted to get an imperial edict ordering him to lead the vanguard of the coming fight against the gaijin. What he was also essentially doing was creating a cancerous cell within the bakufu to destroy it from within-- he would use the Roshigumi to fight the bakufu if it came down to the fact that bakufu had no plans/will to wage a war against the hated foreigners. Kiyokawa would use the Roshigumi as an instrument of sonno joi in accordance with the Emperor's wishes, which never materialized, so it was back to Edo he went.
The bakufu knew what Kiyokawa was up to all along, and once it became policy to pay only lip service to the idea of expelling the foreigners, allowing Kiyokawa to live would be like letting a malign tumor grow from within. And for that reason, Kiyokawa was terminated with *extreme prejudice*.
Again, this is just my theory and I don't have any of my books with me to double-check this against. |
Actually, I'm at work, with only 5 minutes at one of our two internet computers at a time, hence the delay. |
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Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
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Joined: 07 May 2006
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Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| kitsuno wrote: |
| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
Again, this is just my theory and I don't have any of my books with me to double-check this against. |
Next week I'll stipulate that people can't grab a question without immediately answering it, but since I didn't do that this time, Tatsunoshi will still have to throw his answer in here, and you will still have to answer ANOTHER QUESTION |
Well then, you'll likely have to remove me from the group. If I see a question, go back and type up an answer in word, and come back an hour later just to see it answered by someone else-I've just wasted my time, and the same thing could happen several times in a row.
But for now, since I have a half hour, I'll do another one too. |
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Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
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Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4615
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| kitsuno wrote: |
| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
Again, this is just my theory and I don't have any of my books with me to double-check this against. |
Next week I'll stipulate that people can't grab a question without immediately answering it, but since I didn't do that this time, Tatsunoshi will still have to throw his answer in here, and you will still have to answer ANOTHER QUESTION |
Fine! Have it your way! (Do you remember that BK slogan *have it your way*? That goes back a long, long time ago in a television land far away....) |
Oh, crap. I thought he wanted ME to answer another one...and I was all ready, too. |
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kitsuno
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Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 8972
Location: Honolulu, HI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| Tatsunoshi wrote: |
Well then, you'll likely have to remove me from the group. If I see a question, go back and type up an answer in word, and come back an hour later just to see it answered by someone else-I've just wasted my time, and the same thing could happen several times in a row.
But for now, since I have a half hour, I'll do another one too.
....But for now, since I have a half hour, I'll do another one too.
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That was for Obenjo, not you. Thought that was obvious. 
You're perfectly fine - I was poking at Obenjo. You don't have to do another question, he does. I'm still interested in your answer for this one.
Last edited by kitsuno on Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kitsuno
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Location: Honolulu, HI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
Fine! Have it your way! (Do you remember that BK slogan *have it your way*? That goes back a long, long time ago in a television land far away....) |
Yeah, I was talking to you, NOT Tatsunoshi - he's fine, and I want to see his answer for this one. As for you:
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Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
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Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4615
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| kitsuno wrote: |
| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
Fine! Have it your way! (Do you remember that BK slogan *have it your way*? That goes back a long, long time ago in a television land far away....) |
Yeah, I was talking to you, NOT Tatsunoshi - he's fine, and I want to see his answer for this one. As for you:
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Actually, let's give Obenjo credit for this one since I'm ready for another anyway. I'm working on #2. Why did some of the Roshigumi head back to Edo while others stayed in Mibu? |
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kitsuno
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Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 8972
Location: Honolulu, HI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| Tatsunoshi wrote: |
Actually, let's give Obenjo credit for this one since I'm ready for another anyway. |
It's up to you - I only have enough for one question per person, so if you answer one, Obenjo has to wait until another question is answered that he can comment on.
And, I'm still interested in your answer/comments on this one. |
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kitsuno
Forum Shogun
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 8972
Location: Honolulu, HI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| Tatsunoshi wrote: |
If I see a question, go back and type up an answer in word, and come back an hour later just to see it answered by someone else-I've just wasted my time, and the same thing could happen several times in a row. |
Ok, gotcha - I'll exempt you from that  |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
Suo no Kami
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Posts: 4503
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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As usual, I am confused. What is my status on this question? Does my answer count or do I have to answer another one?
I feel like I am in limbo being tortured by the Shogun! Oh, the horror!
Kitsuno-san, you love to torture me, don't you? Well, I can handle anything except the dreaded Hanzo the Razor treatment! Yikes!
Anyway, let me know. I am in a taxi now and can prepare a taxi based *kai-ten* special Shinsengumi fast answer attack to another question as long as my PHS-based internet connection doesn't croak... |
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Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
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Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4615
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: What was Kiyokawa Hachiro's ulterior motive for leading. |
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| kitsuno wrote: |
| Tatsunoshi wrote: |
Actually, let's give Obenjo credit for this one since I'm ready for another anyway. |
It's up to you - I only have enough for one question per person, so if you answer one, Obenjo has to wait until another question is answered that he can comment on.
And, I'm still interested in your answer/comments on this one. |
It's there...and I picked a question that I actually was about to answer here until I stopped myself. |
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Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
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Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4615
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
As usual, I am confused. What is my status on this question? Does my answer count or do I have to answer another one?
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I believe...it's all yours! |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
Suo no Kami
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2009 Benefactor
Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 4503
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Tatsunoshi-san,
Hey, thanks. I didn't mean to steal one from you. I guess if the Shogun had posted rules properly to begin with....  Anyway, it was fun playing a little round of samurai history Jeopardy.
And by the way, Kitsuno-san, do Tatsunoshi and I have a chance to play a daily double? |
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Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
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Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4615
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
Tatsunoshi-san,
Hey, thanks. I didn't mean to steal one from you. I guess if the Shogun had posted rules properly to begin with.... Anyway, it was fun playing a little round of samurai history Jeopardy.
And by the way, Kitsuno-san, do Tatsunoshi and I have a chance to play a daily double? |
As long as your answer is in the form of a question! |
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kitsuno
Forum Shogun
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 8972
Location: Honolulu, HI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
Tatsunoshi-san,
Hey, thanks. I didn't mean to steal one from you. I guess if the Shogun had posted rules properly to begin with.... Anyway, it was fun playing a little round of samurai history Jeopardy.
And by the way, Kitsuno-san, do Tatsunoshi and I have a chance to play a daily double? |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
Suo no Kami
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2009 Benefactor
Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 4503
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, Tai-kun sama, don't be mad...if you really want me to answer another question, go ahead and make up an 11th one. I can try to answer it now or when I get back to Tokyo tomorrow and have access to my illustrious library of Turnbull books!!  |
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kitsuno
Forum Shogun
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 8972
Location: Honolulu, HI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote: |
| or when I get back to Tokyo tomorrow and have access to my illustrious library of Turnbull books!! |
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
Suo no Kami
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2009 Benefactor
Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 4503
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, there's that new book by Stipen Turnedbull-
Kondo: A Renaissance Meglomaniac Samurai: The Bloody Affect of Mixing A Propensity to Kill with a Will to Power. 
It's all original-- Stipen Turnedbull's new book doesn't rely on Mr. Cohen's (oops, I mean Hillsborough's) Shinsengumi book. It's all original source material! |
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