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| Understanding ninja/shinobi; NINJER | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 18 2015, 10:13 AM (1,606 Views) | |
| Saru | Sep 18 2015, 10:13 AM Post #1 |
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Togishi
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As some of you may know, I've done some fiction set in the Sengoku and early Edo periods, but I want to get away from the usual tropes of "wandering ronin" acting as assassins or noble warriors. I'd like to tackle the more deceitful, covert acts of the medieval period and naturally my interest has turned to ninja, and correcting some of the misconceptions about them. Unfortunately, there's so much misinformation out there about them (even more than samurai, I think) that it's hard to separate fact from fiction. To be clear I already know about some of the more common myths being, well, myths, like: -Ninja didn't only wear all-black clothes from head-to-toe -Ninja didn't use only weapons like the so-called "ninja-to" -Ninja weren't necessarily from the lower classes; some ninja, like Hattori Hanzo, were high-ranking samurai I find Hattori Hanzo to actually be a really useful example, since he wasn't some sneaky guy lurking in the shadows like is sometimes portrayed in video games and the like. If his bios are to be believed, he was your standard warrior with a penchant for using spears, and based on his nickname "Devil Hanzo" we have to assume he excelled in straightforward combat. It just seems that he had a talent for espionage and medieval "covert ops" missions. I'm a little more confused about individuals like Kotaro Fuma and the Iga/Kogan "clans," and the whole concept of "shinobi clans," if such a thing could be said to have existed at all. I'm guessing these were probably little more than groups of people acting as mercenaries who were really good at deceiving their opponents, carrying out assassinations, scouting behind enemy lines, and so on. Again, I don't picture a bunch of sneaky people hiding in booby-trapped villages in the mountains, exactly, but regular communities of people who, when called upon, would organize into ad hoc units to carry out objectives that were not forbidden because they were dishonorable, but were hired to do because they were simply better at doing them than others. Obviously these were not members of the buke caste, exactly, but would likely be considered bonge... I know the caste system was not formally established until the Edo period, but it sounds like these people who made up the "ninja clans" were closer to the "bottom" of the Japanese social stratum. |
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Read my samurai fiction here: https://samuraistories.wordpress.com/ Check out my videos on the history of Sengoku Japan: The Sengoku Series | |
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| hashiba_hideyoshi | Oct 6 2015, 05:57 AM Post #2 |
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I recently read a book that said the spear-wielding Hanzo was a guy called Watanabe(?) Hanzo, not Hattori. Sorry, memory's fuzzy, I could be wrong about the second dude's surname. The book said there were two Hanzos, both serving Ieyasu, and they get mistaken to be one entity a lot because Hattori did receive a spear (which apparently he did not use, but donated to some temple somewhere). But Yari no Hanzo wasn't the Devil Hanzo. I haven't double-checked this assertion, though. Re: the clans. If it helps, the Shinchoukoki refers to them as "warrior bands from Iga/Koka". It kind of depends on what the original Japanese word was, but I'm getting the impression that they were like the Saika mercenaries. I've also heard mentions that they were "self-governing jizamurai" in other places? And there was something about Iga being "more democratic than everyone else". I really have no idea what any of those were supposed to mean. I never could find a good resource on how the power structure works in those places, except for the very-dubious-sounding "Chuunin/jounin/genin" thing. |
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| ltdomer98 | Oct 6 2015, 01:24 PM Post #3 |
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Daijo Daijin
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This is correct--Watanabe Hanzo Moritsuna also served Tokugawa Ieyasu. Based on his feats in a battle against the Imagawa in 1562, he was nicknamed "Yari Hanzo", and J-wiki makes a point of saying this was later used to distinguish him from the other famous Hanzo, Hattori Masanari. At Anegawa he was named first spear, and was a Ashigaru kashira at Mikatagahara, Nagashino, and Komaki/Nagakute. At Nagashino, it says, he took the head of Yamamoto Kansuke's son. In 1590 he was named lord of Hiki-gun (3000 koku) in Musashi, when Ieyasu transferred to the Kanto. After Sekigahara he was given another 1000 koku, the wages for 30 mounted constables, and 100 ashigaru. In 1613 he was moved to a larger fief in Owari, near present-day Toyota-shi. He died in 1620 at age 79.
You're looking for Pierre Souyri's chapter "Autonomy and War in the Sixteenth Century Iga Region and the Birth of the Ninja Phenomenon" in Warfare and State Building in Medieval Japan, edited by Ferejohn and Rosenbluth. https://books.google.com/books?id=YPkYMoO0ycIC&dq=rosenbluth+warfare&source=gbs_navlinks_s Iga (among other places) was self-governed by a coalition of jizamurai and local cultivators, and resisted attempts from outside to impose political control over them, particularly Oda Nobunaga's attempts to subjugate the province. Edited by ltdomer98, Oct 6 2015, 01:26 PM.
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![]() Daijo Daijin Emeritus 退職させていただきます。 | |
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| Saru | Oct 23 2015, 05:13 PM Post #4 |
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Togishi
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I just read the Souyru chapter on the Iga and Koga "ninja" and it was very enlightening. Seems to me that most of the "ninja clans" we know if from pop culture were basically bushwhackers of medieval Japan, using guerrilla tactics and espionage. Definitely jives with the info about Fuma Kotaro and his mounted guerrilla "ninja" that worked for the Hojo. Does the notion that Takeda Shingen relied on ninja women have any historical basis? There seems to be indications that Mochizuki Chiyome was a real person but I have yet to read anything to suggest she really started an elite squad of secret couriers, information gatherers and assassins. |
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Read my samurai fiction here: https://samuraistories.wordpress.com/ Check out my videos on the history of Sengoku Japan: The Sengoku Series | |
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| Tatsunoshi | Oct 24 2015, 01:43 AM Post #5 |
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Miko no Kami
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It's basically an invention of Edo period novelists and is tied in with the whole 'Sanada Ten Braves' ninja lore thang of the times. |
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| Saru | Oct 24 2015, 03:53 AM Post #6 |
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Togishi
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Really? Interesting. I had read that Sasuke Sarutobi was an Edo period invention for sure, but I didn't know that the whole "legion of Amazon ninja princesses" was also made from whole cloth. Thanks! |
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Read my samurai fiction here: https://samuraistories.wordpress.com/ Check out my videos on the history of Sengoku Japan: The Sengoku Series | |
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| Bethetsu | Oct 25 2015, 01:04 AM Post #7 |
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Tsushima no kami
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According to the Nihon Shoki, in 602 a monk came from Paekche (in Korea) to the Japanese court bringing books on the calendar暦本, heavenly omens 天文, geomancy 地理, stealth 遁甲, and wizard arts方術, and trained several students. I know what calendar books are, and I have some idea what they would learn about divination, but 遁甲 is described in the dictionary as the art of hiding, or ninjutsu 忍術. What would this actually be? Can we say ninja go back to the Asuka period? , 推古天皇十年(六〇二)十月》冬十月。百済僧観勒来之。仍貢暦本及天文・地理書。并遁甲・方術之書也。是時選書生三四人。以俾学習於観勒矣。陽胡史祖玉陳習暦法。大友村主高聡学天文・遁甲。山背臣日並立学方術。皆学以成業 |
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| J. L. Badgley | Oct 25 2015, 03:01 PM Post #8 |
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Stealth goes back to before the warring states period, in China; Sunzi writes about it extensively. That doesn't mean that we have "ninja". I've seen some authors claim Yamatotakeru as an early "ninja" because of his use of deception. BTW, wouldn't 方術 refer more to divination and geomancy, at least in the Chinese sense? I would assume 地理 to be more about general geography and knowledge of the land (some of which would have important geomantic influences). Regardless, saying that this is where ninja come from is like saying the samurai come from the earliest days of Japan because there was fighting. I would argue that much more surrounding the idea of a "ninja" needs to be built up, and I would, instead, look for when shinobimono start to show up as a concept. |
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Sengoku Daimyo.com The Capital Area Budokai | |
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| Tatsunoshi | Oct 25 2015, 10:19 PM Post #9 |
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Miko no Kami
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There are many proponents of the 'ninja came to Japan via sekrit dokuments from China' just because of that entry in Nihon Shoki. You actually see the 'theory' thrown around quite a bit on martial arts sites. But of course they're looking at it the same way ancient astronaut theorists look at cave paintings, exaggerating their importance and bending over backward to make the documents fit their agenda. Again, it comes down to the fact that stealth and spying have always been around (like Josh says, it's an important part of the Art of War). People are confusing a job/activity (stealth) and transforming it into a name for a person/class.
Edited by Tatsunoshi, Oct 25 2015, 10:21 PM.
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| ltdomer98 | Oct 26 2015, 02:15 AM Post #10 |
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Daijo Daijin
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Oh yeah Mistur Smartypants well my sensei told me that The Yellow Emperor himself assasinated a rival with a toothpick or was it a chopstick anyways so he must have been the first Ninja so there. |
![]() Daijo Daijin Emeritus 退職させていただきます。 | |
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| Tatsunoshi | Oct 26 2015, 10:10 PM Post #11 |
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Miko no Kami
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And that man passed on his sekrits to Prince Shotoku, the first Japanese ninjer, even at the advanced age of over 3000 because ninjer time travel and can't be kilt anyweuigh. |
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| Saru | Oct 27 2015, 08:48 AM Post #12 |
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All joking aside, it is important to stress that stealth and espionage has been around since ancient times, as have early forms of what we today consider guerilla warfare. We know that the ancient Greeks and Romans engaged it so we shouldn't be shocked if the ancient Japanese imported certain tactics from the Chinese in that respect as well. Also, it seems to me that the people of Iga and Koga have to own some of the blame for the "ninjer" distortions themselves, since apparently they tried to profit off the ninja legend by opening "schools" that claimed to teach "ninjutsu" in the early modern period. Granted, can't blame them for trying to make a buck during the time of great peace... You still sometimes read about the "head of the Koga clan" doing something in the news... |
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Read my samurai fiction here: https://samuraistories.wordpress.com/ Check out my videos on the history of Sengoku Japan: The Sengoku Series | |
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| narukagami | Oct 27 2015, 11:04 PM Post #13 |
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Togishi
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There's an embarrassingly misinformed comment string on one of the recent article links posted on the Facebook page. One guy firmly believed in the samurai vs ninja dichotomy, the other "corrected" him with some bullshit about super guerrilla warriors nobly defending their homeland from big bad daimyo. Of course the second guy is apparently an authority, because he took some ninjutsu classes.
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| ltdomer98 | Oct 28 2015, 02:19 AM Post #14 |
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Daijo Daijin
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The lesson here, of course, is to avoid social media.
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![]() Daijo Daijin Emeritus 退職させていただきます。 | |
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| narukagami | Oct 28 2015, 10:55 PM Post #15 |
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Togishi
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But then where am I going to get my unintentional comedy?
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| Wicked L | Apr 12 2016, 04:04 PM Post #16 |
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Oki no kami
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I could think of a few films with Amazonian Ninjer Princesses, but i refuse to lower the tone of the conversation . |
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