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Help with bio, timeline...etc
Topic Started: Mar 8 2018, 08:22 AM (482 Views)
evalerio
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Izumi no kami
Question regarding the Numata clan of Kozuke. Samuraiwiki has them as serving the Uesugi. Is it Uesugi Kenshin (later) or the Yamanouchi Uesugi (earlier) before he became Kenshin? Did they take part in the 4th Kawanakajima battle as part of Kenshin's army?

Thank you.
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kitsuno
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The Shogun

I could probably dig something up with the Sengoku biographical dictionary, but I'm working two 15 hour days in a row, so it might be a few days, but if anyone else has the dictionary, maybe they could get to it before me.
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Parallel Pain
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Merchant
According to j-wiki, they were under the Yamanouchi Uesugi (by the way isn't Kenshin also technically of the Yamanouchi Uesugi?). When Uesugi Norimasa was getting beaten by the Hōjō, the Numata clan broke into factional infighting in 1558, between those who wished to switch to the Hōjō and those who supported Norimasa and Echigo. The Hōjō faction was defeated, and its Numata leader killed, but with the Hōjō drove the Uesugi faction from Numata in 1559. When Kenshin campaigned into the Kantō in 1561, the castle was restored to the Numata clan, but it's administration were put under Uesugi deputies in 1562.

It doesn't say if they were at Kawanakajima, but given the timeline, I'd say unlikely as they'd probably have their hands full trying to settle back down in Numata.

They were again driven from Numata in 1578 by the Hōjō. After the castle fell to Takeda/Sanada, Masayuki had the surviving heir to the clan assassinated, and so ends the Kōzuke Numata clan.
Edited by Parallel Pain, Mar 9 2018, 10:37 AM.
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evalerio
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Izumi no kami
For the pm and email too, thank you all for the info. In telling Uesugi Kenshin's life and career through heraldry, the Numata will appear in Kenshin's 1561 Kanto campaign.

I am also working on showing the sequence of events during the Battle of 4th Kawanakajima through heraldry and battle scene artwork. This is becoming epic with over 45 sets of heraldry and growing!

This is in regards to the Shibata of Echigo.

Turnbull's book on 4th Kawanakajima lists Shibata Harunaga as being pursued and 'destroyed' by Anayama Baisetsu.
I came across Shibata Hironaga in Kenshin's vanguard at 4th Kawanakajima. Is Harunaga and Hironaga the same individual?
Samurai Archives list Shibata Naganori, and I came across him being in the right flank at 4th Kawanakajima.

What is the relationship of Naganori to Harunaga/Hironaga? Were there two separate Shibata contingent? What is the most accurate info on their place in the battle line and what they did that day?

Thank you.
Edited by evalerio, Mar 12 2018, 07:34 AM.
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Parallel Pain
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Merchant
According to j-wiki, Shibata Harunaga should be Ijimino Harunaga at the time of 4th Kawanakajima, as he was adopted into the Ijimino branch. He would later inherit the Shibata clan as Shibata Shigeie in 1580. The Shibata forces at Kawanakajima should have been under command of his elder brother Nagaatsu (or their father Tsunasada).

The Kōyō Gunkan only says Anayama Baisetsu pursued Shibata (who was part of Kenshin's detachment) about 400~500 meters, without saying which Shibata, though according to j-wiki Ijimino Harunaga's credited with Morozumi Toramitsu's kill.
Edited by Parallel Pain, Mar 13 2018, 01:05 PM.
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evalerio
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Izumi no kami
Thank you for the replies. I will just list the various individuals fighting under the Shibata banners that day, where they were and what they did.

This next question is in regards to the Noto Hatakeyama. Jojo Masashige (Hatakeyama Yoshiharu) would have been too young to fight at 4th Kawanakajima for Kenshin. The Noto Hatakeyama are not represented in today's Kenshin and Kawanakajima Festivals, but the Hatakeyama banner appears with Kenshin's forces in one of the Kawanakajima screens. Did any Hatakeyama unit fight for Kenshin at Kawanakajima?

I am compiling Sekigahara the way I am doing 4th Kawanakajima. I came across Jojo Masashige fighting for Tokugawa Ieyasu at Sekigahara, but under the Hatakeyama name. The Hatakeyama are not represented in the Sekigahara screens and in the 'O Uma jirushi' scrolls. I am assuming that Masashige was not in command of Hatakeyama troops and instead fought as a Tokugawa samurai.

Thank you.
Edited by evalerio, Mar 19 2018, 07:52 AM.
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Parallel Pain
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Merchant
So going by my Truth in History book and j-wiki there's some questions about who Jōjō Masashige was and whether or not he is the same person as Hatakeyama Yoshiharu.

According to different Uesugi sources, either he ws Hatakeyama Yoshitaka's son, taken as hostage and adopted by Kenshin and then adopted into and inherited the Jōjō clan as Jōjō Masashige, or he was born as into a branch of the defunct Jōjō clan, which was revived by Kenshin. When Kenshin moved into Noto, in 1577, Jōjō Masashige adopted Hatakeyama Yoshiharu as his son, who may have taken up his name or Jōjō Masashige, the old one taking up a Buddhist name after "becoming a monk". However Edo Bakufu sources treat the treat them as the same person (and my Truth in History book uses this).

In any case at the time of Kawanakajima 1~4, the Noto Hatakeyama was wrought with civil strive as the Hatakeyama shogo tried to deal with rebelling vassals. They were also not really under Kenshin's control (Kenshin did not move into and control Noto until mid/late 1570s, and Noto did not border Echigo), so I doubt they would be present at Kawanakajima.
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