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Progression of Titles
Topic Started: Feb 21 2018, 10:52 AM (389 Views)
Toranosuke
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Tosa no kami
For any of you who've read some original Sengoku or Edo period documents, you've found that daimyo and others are most frequently referred to by hereditary titles, making it a matter of some extra legwork to figure out exactly who they're referring to.

Within the Shimazu clan, they seem to progress through the titles Bungo-no-kami (when heir to the domain), Satsuma-no-kami, and Ôsumi-no-kami, but while I've actually found a chart of all the ranks and titles for all the Kyushu and Shikoku daimyo, I can't seem to discern the logic behind it. Sometimes the reigning lord of Kagoshima is Satsuma-no-kami, and sometimes Ôsumi-no-kami... If I'm reading it right, it looks like some people (such as Shimazu Tsugutoyo) were named Ôsumi-no-kami upon their genpuku and never became Satsuma-no-kami, while others, such as Shimazu Munenobu, were named Satsuma-no-kami on their genpuku, and seemingly never became Ôsumi-no-kami.

There seems to be a stronger connection between these titles and either the person's genpuku, or their court rank, than a connection between titles and whether they were actually lord of Kagoshima (and head of the Shimazu house) yet or not.

But, beyond this, I can't seem to find a pattern. Does anyone know of an other chart, that explains out the logic behind these progressions? Thanks!
上り口説 Nubui Kuduchi – Musings on the arts of Japan and beyond
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ltdomer98
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Daijo Daijin

How far back have you gone? I don't have the answer to your question, but titles is something I'm looking into understanding the logic behind (such as it may be). I'll let you know if I come across something, but I'm really only just starting to mess with the Shimazu, Otomo, etc.
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Toranosuke
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Tosa no kami
The charts I have start with Shimazu Yoshihiro (1535-1619) and go up through Tadayoshi (1840-1897).

Basically, here's my issue:

A lot of my documents talk about Ôsumi-no-kami and Bungo-no-kami appearing together, for example in audiences with the kubô. In 1832 (a year I have a lot of documents from), Shimazu Narioki, lord of Kagoshima, held the title of Ôsumi-no-kami, and his son Nariakira held the title of Bungo-no-kami. Except, Narioki's father Narinobu, and Narinobu's father Shigehide, were both still alive and present in Edo at that time. And I've been having a hard time figuring out which of them was Satsuma-no-kami, and how the other one is referred to at that time. ... And more to the point, for the whole rest of the Edo period up until them, wondering if there was some pattern that would help me know quickly and easily who a document is referring to when it says Satsuma-no-kami, or Ôsumi-no-kami, or whether I should look back at this chart every time.

The crown prince of the UK is always the "Prince of Wales," and the crown prince of Ryukyu is always the Prince of Nakagusuku 中城王子. There doesn't seem to be quite as direct a correlation here, but, if there is some pattern I'm not noticing, or not aware of, it would make things so much easier :)
Edited by Toranosuke, Feb 21 2018, 02:02 PM.
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ltdomer98
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Daijo Daijin

When do they start with Yoshihiro? After Sekigahara, I presume?

I agree that it sounds like there's some sort of underlying logic. I'm not sure that anything before then would help, IF the pattern is a post-Sekigahara construct. I have no evidence at this time to suggest it is or it isn't, but I'll take notice as I start going through things and see what I can determine.
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Toranosuke
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Quote:
 
After Sekigahara, I presume?


Hm. Yes, it would appear so. I don't know what went on earlier, but the earliest title on this chart is Yoshihiro being named Mutsu-no-kami in 1604.
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ltdomer98
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Daijo Daijin

So this is just speculation, but it sounds like the system you're looking for was implemented post-Sekigahara as a way to incorporate the Shimazu back into the Tokugawa political sphere. I've got a book on Yoshihiro sitting on my desk and I'll see if that has anything later tonight if I can.
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