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Sources for Takeda generals and war curtains
Topic Started: Oct 28 2017, 11:18 AM (994 Views)
Samanosuke
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Peasant
Hello to all!

I am delighted to have stumbled upon this forum. There are some very thorough people here that are a pleasure to read.
I am a historian, dealing with another culture and era, but my fascination with samurai goes a long way back.
I'd like to ask you to help me to further my knowledge on the subject.

So my first question is - what are the sources for these known Takeda generals' crests. I've seen O Umajirushi and Shosho Kisei Zu, Osaka screen as well, but couldn't find them, or much Takeda related standards at all. Turnbull seems to be the only source I could find, but he doesn't give his sources.

Would it be too much to ask for original sources for those like Baba Nobufusa, Samanosuke Nobushige, Kōsaka Masanobu or Yamamoto Kansuke?

My second question is perhaps a simpler one. Reading A.Cummins' Samurai War Stories I came across this quote:

' Looking at the battlefield yesterday and today, I saw countless numbers of musket bags, saddle covers, blankets, stirrups, horse ladle and so on that have their clan crests upon them. This is extremely dishonourable. These days it is popular to have a war-screen (board) that is covered in gold leaf with the lord’s crest in black upon it or a war-curtain (cloth) with pictures drawn or also the crest on it. This way was not followed by samurai families in former days.'

So is the often portrayed crest upon a war curtain an anachronism before Edo period?
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ltdomer98
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There are better people than me to help you with the crest information.

As for the quote in the Cummins book...where does this quote come from? THAT is a vital piece of information before we can answer the question. My initial response is that the "This way was not followed by samurai families in former days" refers less to the crest on what I presume is a tate, a type of pavise-like standing shield, and more the gold leaf. Certainly crests on maki curtains was not unusual even well before the Sengoku period. As for marking crests on individual equipment, that's a symptom of the increased regularization of armies. I'd say "professionalization" or "modernization" but both of those are loaded terms. We can see from the quote that it at least the later 16th century (guns are present), so we're in a period where more and more daimyo had permanent soldiers...perhaps not standing armies quite yet, but regularized call up relationships with lower ranking peasant-soldiers who would be given "loan armor" and serve as ashigaru foot soldiers. Perhaps this person is upset to see a clan's mon (crest) being used by non-blood members of the family, even by low-ranking footsoldiers. Certainly lower ranks were not given that privilege in "former days." But again, without seeing who the quote is from, what it is in, and other context, it's hard to be sure.
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evalerio
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The heraldry for Baba, Nobushige, and Kosaka Masanobu that appear in Dr. Turnbull's books come from the Takeda Warband in today's Shingen ko Matsuri, annual festivals reenacting the Kawanakajima battle.

BUT, the heraldry for Yamamoto Kansuke in Turnbull's book come from this movie:
https://illustractiongallery.com/9446-large/samurai-banners--japanese-.jpg
This is a bad source for samurai heraldry, and the heraldry of several clans in Turnbull's books have also come from this film.

This is an illustration in Dr. Turnbull's Kawanakajima book:
https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/strat014.jpg
The Kosaka heraldry here is used in today's Kawanakajima Festivals, but is probably anachronistic. Not used during the Kawanakajima battle.

Using the heraldry in today's festivals as reference is confusing and frustrating, as they seem to evolve and change through the years. Below is the Amari heraldry:
http://www.japonfestivals.com/IMG/jpg/Shingenko-matsuri-03.jpg
They used to be HORIZONTAL red bars on white. They are horizontal in Japanese films and Japanese heraldry books. Now they also appear in black band versions.

Many of the flags have changed colors. The Anayama blue have turned dark blue then to yellow. The Torii started out as black, but is now a bright blue. The Kosaka from yellow to white.

There are two distinct sets of Baba heraldry that would have appeared in different periods of Baba's career. Curvy lines and the Chevron ones.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kZ22DbBeP1c/maxresdefault.jpg
Edited by evalerio, Oct 29 2017, 06:05 PM.
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Samanosuke
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ltdomer98
Oct 29 2017, 03:11 PM
There are better people than me to help you with the crest information.

As for the quote in the Cummins book...where does this quote come from? THAT is a vital piece of information before we can answer the question. My initial response is that the "This way was not followed by samurai families in former days" refers less to the crest on what I presume is a tate, a type of pavise-like standing shield, and more the gold leaf. Certainly crests on maki curtains was not unusual even well before the Sengoku period. As for marking crests on individual equipment, that's a symptom of the increased regularization of armies. I'd say "professionalization" or "modernization" but both of those are loaded terms. We can see from the quote that it at least the later 16th century (guns are present), so we're in a period where more and more daimyo had permanent soldiers...perhaps not standing armies quite yet, but regularized call up relationships with lower ranking peasant-soldiers who would be given "loan armor" and serve as ashigaru foot soldiers. Perhaps this person is upset to see a clan's mon (crest) being used by non-blood members of the family, even by low-ranking footsoldiers. Certainly lower ranks were not given that privilege in "former days." But again, without seeing who the quote is from, what it is in, and other context, it's hard to be sure.


The source I believe is mid 17th century Zohyo Monogatari. It is a generation or two, at least, after Sengoku, so it made me think 'former days' in this context probably refer to Sengoku. Such glorifying tone seems to fit the 'glory days of warfare' the best. Person(s) - it's a faux dialogue, explicitly talk about samurai, and how umajirushi standards and hata-flags are the only ones which should bear the crest 'or such things'.

These clan symbols are quite common in later woodblock print art, but do they appear in earlier paintings as well?


evalerio
Oct 29 2017, 05:50 PM
The heraldry for Baba, Nobushige, and Kosaka Masanobu that appear in Dr. Turnbull's books come from the Takeda Warband in today's Shingen ko Matsuri, annual festivals reenacting the Kawanakajima battle.

BUT, the heraldry for Yamamoto Kansuke in Turnbull's book come from this movie:
https://illustractiongallery.com/9446-large/samurai-banners--japanese-.jpg
This is a bad source for samurai heraldry, and the heraldry of several clans in Turnbull's books have also come from this film.

This is an illustration in Dr. Turnbull's Kawanakajima book:
https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/strat014.jpg
The Kosaka heraldry here is used in today's Kawanakajima Festivals, but is probably anachronistic. Not used during the Kawanakajima battle.

Using the heraldry in today's festivals as reference is confusing and frustrating, as they seem to evolve and change through the years. Below is the Amari heraldry:
http://www.japonfestivals.com/IMG/jpg/Shingenko-matsuri-03.jpg
They used to be HORIZONTAL red bars on white. They are horizontal in Japanese films and Japanese heraldry books. Now they also appear in black band versions.

Many of the flags have changed colors. The Anayama blue have turned dark blue then to yellow. The Torii started out as black, but is now a bright blue. The Kosaka from yellow to white.

There are two distinct sets of Baba heraldry that would have appeared in different periods of Baba's career. Curvy lines and the Chevron ones.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kZ22DbBeP1c/maxresdefault.jpg


The practice of using anachronistic or pseudo historical 'fillers' where the proper sources are lacking is a sad practice I encounter regularly in Ancient Greek reenactment and academic work alike.

So to sum up, heraldry for quite a few of this big players of Takeda are basically - unknown.

Is there a (near) contemporary heraldry book or painting that depicts more Takeda heraldry, other than Shingen's? Perhaps a grave?
I own a copy of a 1699 Koyo Gunkan (even though I can't read it) and I hoped, overentusiastically, that they would show heraldry in those illustrations, but they are schematic in every sense of the word.

Bottom line, can any of these (based on Turnbull's book) be considered proper historical flags belonging to this samurai?

I apologise for this torrent of questions.

And thank you both for your answers

Posted Image
Edited by Samanosuke, Oct 30 2017, 02:57 AM.
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ltdomer98
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Samanosuke
Oct 30 2017, 02:54 AM
The source I believe is mid 17th century Zohyo Monogatari. It is a generation or two, at least, after Sengoku, so it made me think 'former days' in this context probably refer to Sengoku. Such glorifying tone seems to fit the 'glory days of warfare' the best. Person(s) - it's a faux dialogue, explicitly talk about samurai, and how umajirushi standards and hata-flags are the only ones which should bear the crest 'or such things'.

These clan symbols are quite common in later woodblock print art, but do they appear in earlier paintings as well?


Zohyo was written in 1683, and is essentially a manual for ashigaru. It seems rather incongruous for Matsudaira Nobuoki (or Obata Kagenori, depending on who you ask) to be lamenting the use of the house mon on the armor and equipment of the very soldiers the book is intended for as a manual (it's for their commanders, obviously, but you get the point).

If anything, he's complaining about ostentation--that in 1683, equipment is used for display (again, the gold leaf) rather than war. I think the "yesterday and today" is not literal, but figurative--your response seems to indicate you think the same--so he's not talking about an actual battlefield he saw in 1683. I don't think the thrust of his comment is that "the crest shouldn't be on anything," it's that excessive use of it as a decorating motif is another form of ostentatious display on these things that should be practical for battle. Ashigaru armor, helmets, etc. from the Sengoku had house mon on them, so this isn't a difference between "former days" and "today." He would know that. Now, the specific things he mentions: musket bags, saddle covers, blankets, stirrups, horse ladle, and so on--those certainly don't need a crest on them. So I guess to restate, it's not "you can never use the mon," it's "quit using it on inconsequential stuff." The complaint about the tate is the gold leaf, not the crest. The maki curtains seem odd to me--of course they'd have the crest on them, but sure, painting other things is superfluous.
Edited by ltdomer98, Oct 30 2017, 04:06 AM.
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evalerio
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The Sanada survived the fall of the Takeda, Sekigahara and the fall of Osaka Castle, by having family members fighting for Tokugawa Ieyasu. Family members fighting for Ieyasu used heraldry that appear to have been used in Shinano BEFORE they joined the Takeda. These are recorded in 'O Uma jirushi'. The Sanada heraldry before and during the Takeda service did not disappear like the other Takeda commanders did. Sanada banners have survived, as well as Sanada Masayuki's armour. Other Sanada family members like Nobutsuna and Masateru appear in the Nagashino screen. I have about 8 sets of Sanada heraldry, about 5 of them while serving the Takeda.

Family members of other Takeda commanders survived by serving Tokugawa Ieyasu, like the Obata of Kai.

The heraldry of Yamagata Masakage appear in the Takeda screen, the Kawanakajima screens and in the Nagashino screen. The Yamagata heraldry are consistent in all these. Some Kasuga, Sanada, Amari, Baba, Ichiyo, Yamamoto Kansuke, Takeda Yoshinobu and Takeda Nobushige's heraldry also appear in the Kawanakajima screens. Nobushige's heraldry is consistent in the various Kawanakajima screens. Shingen used different Sonshi Uma jirushi for different campaigns. Seven have survived to this day, as well as the Bahyo Uma jirushi. The Sonshi nobori and Suwa flags used by Takeda Katsuyori have survived to this day. Unfortunately, they are incorrectly used to depict heraldry of Takeda Shingen in films and reenactments.

Obata Nobusada of Kozuke has armour, jinbaori and sashimono survive to this day. His heraldry appear to have been recreated using these. Artifacts like armour, helmet, and flags of other Takeda commanders have survived.

Takeda commanders who were from Shinano like the Kosaka, Mochizuki and the Kiso, the heraldry still appear in the region today in temples, etc.

These are just some sources used by filmmakers, reenactment groups and Japanese heraldry books. Filmmakers and reenactment groups appear to use some artistic license. The mon are likely accurate. It is the color used on some that may be guesses. Japanese books use speculations in putting together heraldry sets.
Edited by evalerio, Oct 30 2017, 07:36 AM.
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Parallel Pain
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I'm willing to trust heraldry taken from surviving artefacts and infographic paintings. Artwork though, less so. Specifically, historians have just confirmed the existence of Yamamoto Kansuke as one of Takeda Shingen's close retainers, but have nothing in contemporary sources on what he actually did. But he is one a really popular subject of Edo-era artwork. So I don't know how we can say with any certainty what his heraldry was.
Edited by Parallel Pain, Oct 30 2017, 02:42 PM.
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Samanosuke
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Parallel Pain
 
I'm willing to trust heraldry taken from surviving artefacts and infographic paintings. Artwork though, less so. Specifically, historians have just confirmed the existence of Yamamoto Kansuke as one of Takeda Shingen's close retainers, but have nothing in contemporary sources on what he actually did. But he is one a really popular subject of Edo-era artwork. So I don't know how we can say with any certainty what his heraldry was.


True. The artwork above is me reusing a Japanese poster to illustrate points from Turnbull's book.
Hoping to separate historical, speculative and completely invented ones from each other, because secondary sources , including Turnbull, prove to be quite unreliable and speculative. In fact, the problematic nature of Kansuke's crest is the reason why I started thinking about this little problem.

If I'm not mistaken, Kansuke and one of his inventions is referred to in Gunpo Jiyoshu, predating Koyo Gunkan, in publication if not composition...

evalerio
 
The Sanada survived the fall of the Takeda, Sekigahara and the fall of Osaka Castle, by having family members fighting for Tokugawa Ieyasu. Family members fighting for Ieyasu used heraldry that appear to have been used in Shinano BEFORE they joined the Takeda. These are recorded in 'O Uma jirushi'. The Sanada heraldry before and during the Takeda service did not disappear like the other Takeda commanders did. Sanada banners have survived, as well as Sanada Masayuki's armour. Other Sanada family members like Nobutsuna and Masateru appear in the Nagashino screen. I have about 8 sets of Sanada heraldry, about 5 of them while serving the Takeda.

Family members of other Takeda commanders survived by serving Tokugawa Ieyasu, like the Obata of Kai.
Remarkable information! Could I trouble you for few more details about ''The Sonshi nobori and Suwa flags used by Takeda Katsuyori...incorrectly used to depict heraldry of Takeda Shingen in films and reenactments.''
''
And when you say seven Shingen's flags survive, you mean seven artifacts or seven different designs? Do we know which one was for which campaign?

Speaking of which, is there a know dating for this one? Posted Image

Also, is the Masayuki armour you mention the one with the ladder painted on it?

ltdomer98
 
Zohyo was written in 1683, and is essentially a manual for ashigaru. It seems rather incongruous for Matsudaira Nobuoki (or Obata Kagenori, depending on who you ask) to be lamenting the use of the house mon on the armor and equipment of the very soldiers the book is intended for as a manual (it's for their commanders, obviously, but you get the point).

If anything, he's complaining about ostentation-...


Thank you. Seems like a reasonable interpretation. The last quoted sentence confused me, almost as if he is protesting the whole practice of decorating curtains etc. or maybe something got lost in translation for me there.


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evalerio
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Off the top of my head. Takeda Shingen used a different Sonshi uma jirushi for each campaign. Only seven is said to have survived as others were destroyed to make tea to cure ailments. Of the seven, I have identified one that was used in 4th Kawanakajima (shown in the screens) and a different one used at Mikatagahara.

Sanada Masayuki's armour does have a ladder on the breastplate and a helmet with a large 'u' shaped helmet crest in silver.

More later, taking my nephew out for dinner.
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Samanosuke
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Thank you for a quick reply. Looking forward to hearing more.

And bon appetit :)
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Parallel Pain
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Samanosuke
Nov 3 2017, 11:55 AM
True. The artwork above is me reusing a Japanese poster to illustrate points from Turnbull's book.
Hoping to separate historical, speculative and completely invented ones from each other, because secondary sources , including Turnbull, prove to be quite unreliable and speculative. In fact, the problematic nature of Kansuke's crest is the reason why I started thinking about this little problem.

If I'm not mistaken, Kansuke and one of his inventions is referred to in Gunpo Jiyoshu, predating Koyo Gunkan, in publication if not composition...
Both have no firm published date, but both are published in the early Edo. In fact if I were to take one or the other, I'd take the Gunkan, who's info were supposedly passed down for Kōsaka Masanobu (though if that's true then Kōsaka's memory sucks).

Kansuke's existence (and possible descendant) has been confirmed through Ichikawa and Mashimo Monjo, but that only confirmed his existence, not who he was in the Takeda circle. For a supposedly famous strategist, he certainly didn't leave much contemporary mark.
Edited by Parallel Pain, Nov 3 2017, 05:13 PM.
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evalerio
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This is an illustration in Dr. Turnbull's Osprey Nagashino book. Its suppose to show Obata Masamori leading a charge into the wooden fences. The flags are what is used in today's Kawanakajima reenactments.

https://assets.arrecaballo.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/batalla-de-nagashino-1575-carga-de-obata-masamori.png

The armour worn by Masamori in the illustration has survived intact, BUT it belonged to Obata Nobusada of Kozuke. It has a war fan painted on the back plate, one of the mon used by Nobusada.

In festivals and films Shingen is shown displaying a dark blue nobori with gold characters and three elaborate red Suwa flags. These were the ones displayed by Katsuyori. Shingen used large square or rectangular black flags as his Sonshi uma jirushi. Of the four examples I have seen each one is constructed differently, with the gold characters arranged differently. No two are alike. Shingen's Suwa flags are also simpler versions than Katsuyori's. Katsuyori used at least three different Suwa flags of varying sizes. Shingen had two examples, but with several copies of each.

I am still looking for the other three surviving Sonshi uma jirushi and trying to identify the other two, which campaign they were used.
Edited by evalerio, Nov 4 2017, 12:47 AM.
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Samanosuke
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Parallel Pain
Nov 3 2017, 05:12 PM
Samanosuke
Nov 3 2017, 11:55 AM
True. The artwork above is me reusing a Japanese poster to illustrate points from Turnbull's book.
Hoping to separate historical, speculative and completely invented ones from each other, because secondary sources , including Turnbull, prove to be quite unreliable and speculative. In fact, the problematic nature of Kansuke's crest is the reason why I started thinking about this little problem.

If I'm not mistaken, Kansuke and one of his inventions is referred to in Gunpo Jiyoshu, predating Koyo Gunkan, in publication if not composition...
Both have no firm published date, but both are published in the early Edo. In fact if I were to take one or the other, I'd take the Gunkan, who's info were supposedly passed down for Kōsaka Masanobu (though if that's true then Kōsaka's memory sucks).

Kansuke's existence (and possible descendant) has been confirmed through Ichikawa and Mashimo Monjo, but that only confirmed his existence, not who he was in the Takeda circle. For a supposedly famous strategist, he certainly didn't leave much contemporary mark.


If my memory serves me, there is a letter confirming Kansuke's high status in Takeda clan, and him constructing/designing watchtowers in Gunpo Jiyoshu which is, in any case, published before Koyo Gunkan, seems to agree with the idea of him as a high ranking tactician or a 'general', however anachronistic the term may be. Having said that, the supposed legendary status is, I suspect, a product of later tradition, inflating and myth making no culture is immune to. I am not really surprised we don't have more than we do on Yamamoto Kansuke,
especially since the Takeda survived for only two more decades after his death.


evalerio
 
This is an illustration in Dr. Turnbull's Osprey Nagashino book. Its suppose to show Obata Masamori leading a charge into the wooden fences. The flags are what is used in today's Kawanakajima reenactments.

https://assets.arrecaballo.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/batalla-de-nagashino-1575-carga-de-obata-masamori.png

The armour worn by Masamori in the illustration has survived intact, BUT it belonged to Obata Nobusada of Kozuke. It has a war fan painted on the back plate, one of the mon used by Nobusada.

In festivals and films Shingen is shown displaying a dark blue nobori with gold characters and three elaborate red Suwa flags. These were the ones displayed by Katsuyori. Shingen used large square or rectangular black flags as his Sonshi uma jirushi. Of the four examples I have seen each one is constructed differently, with the gold characters arranged differently. No two are alike. Shingen's Suwa flags are also simpler versions than Katsuyori's. Katsuyori used at least three different Suwa flags of varying sizes. Shingen had two examples, but with several copies of each.

I am still looking for the other three surviving Sonshi uma jirushi and trying to identify the other two, which campaign they were used.


So these would all be Katsuyori's flags (some incomplete?) if I understood correctly, or are the red ones showing both simpler (Shingen's) and more elaborate (Katsuyori's) version of flags you mention?
Posted Image

Bottom line, these would be two of the several version's of Shingen's black umajirushi? There are no surviving examples I suppose?
Posted Image
Edited by Samanosuke, Nov 4 2017, 07:46 AM.
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evalerio
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Samanosuke,

Upper photo. Katsuyori's Sonshi nobori. Next to it, three large Takeda mon on red, this is the Bahyo Uma jirushi displayed by Shingen and later by Katsuyori. Next are two Suwa flags displayed by Katsuyori. The Hi-no-maru flag is at the lowest right. Believed to be the oldest red sun flag in existence, legend has it as early as 1056. A treasure of the Takeda House considered too valuable to risk damage, it was never brought along for battle. So depictions of it with the Takeda army in reenactments and films are not correct. About a third of it is missing. A piece of it is said to have been taken by a Tokugawa shogun in the hope that it would bring him victory.

Lower photo: Two depictions of two different Sonshi Uma jirushi displayed by Shingen. The left one looks to be the one at 4th Kawanakajima. BUT the one on the right...I forgot about this one! I now have FIVE!!!!! WOOHOO!!! Thank you, Samanosuke!!!

I have only seen Japanese illustrations of NOW five examples and have no idea whether they were drawn from the surviving seven relics. The one used at 4th Kawanakajima as an example appears in all the Kawanakajima screens. One is preserved at the Enriji temple. The other six are at the Unpoji temple at Enzan where the Hi-no-maru flag is also kept.
Edited by evalerio, Nov 5 2017, 08:39 AM.
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Parallel Pain
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Samanosuke
Nov 4 2017, 07:45 AM
If my memory serves me, there is a letter confirming Kansuke's high status in Takeda clan, and him constructing/designing watchtowers in Gunpo Jiyoshu which is, in any case, published before Koyo Gunkan, seems to agree with the idea of him as a high ranking tactician or a 'general', however anachronistic the term may be. Having said that, the supposed legendary status is, I suspect, a product of later tradition, inflating and myth making no culture is immune to. I am not really surprised we don't have more than we do on Yamamoto Kansuke,
especially since the Takeda survived for only two more decades after his death.
What make you think that Gunpō Jiyōshu was "published" before the Kōyō Gunkan, especially when rescent literary analysis firmly place the language used to late Sengoku/early Edo Kai/Shinano (I can't believe I'm defending the Gunkan)?
At best you can say the two are contemporary. It's not like there was a reliable publication system back then like ISBN.
The letter you're probably talking about IIRC says at the end of the letter "for details, ask Yamamoto Kasuke", meaning he was likely serving as a high ranking aid.

In any case, giving how little we actually know about him, I'm not trusting any depiction of his supposed kamon. Sure he must have been relatively important compared to hundreds and thousands of others, but if he was really that important, you'd think he'd have left behind a lot more letters, or there'd be a lot more mentions of him in Komai Masatake's diaries and Katsuyamaki.
Edited by Parallel Pain, Nov 5 2017, 09:09 AM.
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Samanosuke
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Samanosuke, Upper photo. Katsuyori's Sonshi nobori. Next to it, three large Takeda mon on red, this is the Bahyo Uma jirushi displayed by Shingen and later by Katsuyori. Next are two Suwa flags displayed by Katsuyori. The Hi-no-maru flag is at the lowest right. Believed to be the oldest red sun flag in existence, legend has it as early as 1056. A treasure of the Takeda House considered too valuable to risk damage, it was never brought along for battle. So depictions of it with the Takeda army in reenactments and films are not correct. About a third of it is missing. A piece of it is said to have been taken by a Tokugawa shogun in the hope that it would bring him victory.

Lower photo: Two depictions of two different Sonshi Uma jirushi displayed by Shingen. The left one looks to be the one at 4th Kawanakajima. BUT the one on the right...I forgot about this one! I now have FIVE!!!!! WOOHOO!!! Thank you, Samanosuke!!!

I have only seen Japanese illustrations of NOW five examples and have no idea whether they were drawn from the surviving seven relics. The one used at 4th Kawanakajima as an example appears in all the Kawanakajima screens. One is preserved at the Enriji temple. The other six are at the Unpoji temple at Enzan where the Hi-no-maru flag is also kept.


You are welcome, I am glad I was of any help, quite unexpectedly :) I appreciate the comprehensive information as well. Thank you. Most of the black flags we are talking about feature a somewhat strange design, with an odd number of letters arranged quite asymmetrically. It makes me think such arrangement is an artistic device . But then again, my reasoning might be wrong.

Parallel Pain
 
What make you think that Gunpō Jiyōshu was "published" before the Kōyō Gunkan, especially when rescent literary analysis firmly place the language used to late Sengoku/early Edo Kai/Shinano (I can't believe I'm defending the Gunkan)?
At best you can say the two are contemporary. It's not like there was a reliable publication system back then like ISBN.
The letter you're probably talking about IIRC says at the end of the letter "for details, ask Yamamoto Kasuke", meaning he was likely serving as a high ranking aid.

In any case, giving how little we actually know about him, I'm not trusting any depiction of his supposed kamon. Sure he must have been relatively important compared to hundreds and thousands of others, but if he was really that important, you'd think he'd have left behind a lot more letters, or there'd be a lot more mentions of him in Komai Masatake's diaries and Katsuyamaki.


I am obviously not an authority on the subject, and I can't do much but concur really. It was probably something I picked up along the way some time ago.
"Everyone sees that even a beautiful full moon starts to change its shape, becoming smaller as the time passes. Even in our human lives, things are as it is."
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evalerio
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Izumi no kami
Samanosuke,

All the Sonshi uma jirushi displayed by Shingen and Katsuyori are saying the same thing. Same characters, but applied with different styles of handwriting or brushwork. Arranged differently with each flag.

Below are the characters as they appear in the Mikatagahara flag. Just place the characters in a large square black flag, and there you have it.
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/8c/23/8f/8c238f2c57460e18c41bc87771588e8e.jpg

Below is the arrangement in Katsuyori's nobori:
https://www.alexcious.com/upload/save_image/09191940_541c0829171e3.jpg

Take the arrangement of the characters above and place them on a large square black flag. The characters in two columns would appear small to fit in a square flag. This is another uma jirushi.

Take the arrangement above again, characters in two columns and placed on a more rectangular black flag, the flag displayed vertically. You now have another version.
Edited by evalerio, Nov 6 2017, 07:13 PM.
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Samanosuke
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Peasant
Of course. But there are two kanji missing on some of them, am I right? I don't speak Japanese, but I suppose they aren't necessary for understanding the message, therefore omitted on some painting where space is an obvious issue. That was the artistic device I was referring to above.

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Edited by Samanosuke, Nov 7 2017, 01:42 AM.
"Everyone sees that even a beautiful full moon starts to change its shape, becoming smaller as the time passes. Even in our human lives, things are as it is."
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evalerio
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I see it. Looking at the six examples (including Katsuyori's) the two characters you are referring to were not omitted, but appear to have been added later. The earlier example of 4th Kawanakajima showed 14 characters spread out a bit to form a square, but with gaps in the arrangement. By the later Mikatagahara example the two characters now helped form a perfect square arrangement in only two examples.

The two column arrangement with 14 characters appear to be the most preferred in uma jirushi and nobori. Just as Shingen had multiple examples, Katsuyori appear to have at least two or three nobori which I am assuming were also displayed at different times.
Edited by evalerio, Nov 7 2017, 07:39 AM.
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ltdomer98
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Samanosuke
Nov 7 2017, 01:32 AM
Of course. But there are two kanji missing on some of them, am I right? I don't speak Japanese, but I suppose they aren't necessary for understanding the message, therefore omitted on some painting where space is an obvious issue. That was the artistic device I was referring to above.

Posted Image


I haven't looked at the passage from the standpoint of translating it (I've certainly seen it translated any number of times in English and Japanese), but the character you're circling is 其, which correlates as その (sono) or "this/that." In other words, adding or removing it may not significantly change the meaning of the quote (I'd have to translate it both ways from the Chinese to test that, and I don't have time to really do it, so if someone else wants to take a look, they are more than welcome). So if you're trying to fit it into a configuration for a banner, those are likely characters you can remove to adjust the number and make it fit.
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Parallel Pain
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They were part of the original phrasing in Sun Tzu's Art of War. In this case the word is "its". Putting it in context:

Therefore, an army is based on deception
...
therefore, its speed [is] as the wind,
its silence [is] as the forest
...
Edited by Parallel Pain, Nov 7 2017, 10:55 AM.
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ltdomer98
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Daijo Daijin

Which, if you take it out to fit the number of characters into a certain arrangement, doesn't particularly matter. It's referring back to the original subject, which can be presumed understood, so if you're looking for two characters to cut, those would work.
Edited by ltdomer98, Nov 7 2017, 11:24 AM.
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退職させていただきます。
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Samanosuke
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I've found an image of the aforementioned Sanada armour. In this book, though, it is said to have belonged to Sanada Yukimura. Are we talking about different armour sets or is this a misatribution? Yukimura's armour seems to be a red one with antlers on his helmet, but I am uncertain if this is a pop culture image or a historical fact.

Also, does anybody know what is the museum (temple?) that stores this?

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Edited by Samanosuke, Jul 8 2018, 08:59 PM.
"Everyone sees that even a beautiful full moon starts to change its shape, becoming smaller as the time passes. Even in our human lives, things are as it is."
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Bethetsu
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Samanosuke
Jul 8 2018, 08:44 PM
I've found an image of the aforementioned Sanada armour. In this book, though, it is said to have belonged to Sanada Yukimura. Are we talking about different armour sets or is this a misatribution? Yukimura's armour seems to be a red one with antlers on his helmet, but I am uncertain if this is a pop culture image or a historical fact.

One existent Masayuki set of armor is that in the Ueda City Museum, which is not the ladder armor. But he gave it to a retainer as a reward for valor, so presumably he had other armor also.

The "ladder" armor does seem to be traditionally attributed to Masayuki as shown in the 20th-century drawing by Satô Setsudô (reading?) of the consultation before Sekigahara

http://museum.umic.ueda.nagano.jp/hakubutsukan/syuzouhin/syuzo.html
click on the upper-left flower, then on the 真田昌幸着用具足 and 真田父子犬伏密談図.
(I hope this works)

Yukimura's armor in the Osaka Summer Screen is completely different.
Edited by Bethetsu, Jul 9 2018, 01:57 AM.
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Samanosuke
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Excellent link. Thank you very much. If I'm correct this is Yukimura depicted in the Osaka summer screen. The red armour with antlers - which is a bit exaggerated in modern reenactorship if I may say. Our love for uniformity and standardisation doesn't seem to reflect 16th century reality as far as I can tell.

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