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| Two layers of symbolic rulers in Japan; Another beginner question | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 4 2017, 06:17 AM (427 Views) | |
| Sam | Jul 4 2017, 06:17 AM Post #1 |
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Artisan
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One of the strange aspects of Japanese history that has stood out for me is that at times you have two layers of symbolic rule: the emperor (first layer) and the shogun (second layer) both have very little hard power. I understand the emperor's legitimacy being hereditary but how/when did the shogunate turn hereditary? Imagine in addition the royal family monarchy, the office of UK Prime Minister was also held by a family and it was hereditary. Are there any other instances like this in world history? |
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| Toranosuke | Jul 4 2017, 01:28 PM Post #2 |
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Tosa no kami
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I'm not sure off the top of my head of any other examples of such dual rule. It's certainly an interesting case. But as for the shoguns, if we compare the shoguns to kings elsewhere in the world, it's really not quite so unique a thing. In kingdoms from England to Hawaii to Ryukyu & Korea to Mali, "kings" were originally just successful warrior leaders, who conquered or otherwise united their territories, subduing or otherwise gaining the following/loyalty of their former rivals, and then named themselves "king." And then passed down that position to their sons (or heirs, otherwise). The only real difference in Japan is that the shoguns never called themselves Kings (then again, that's really just a matter of translation... we could choose to translate kubô 公方 or tenkasama 天下様 as "king" and then bam they'd become "kings"), and that they maintained an Emperor above them who remained the nominal source of political legitimacy. As far as I know, the shogunate became hereditary from the very beginning of Minamoto rule. The first three Kamakura shoguns were in a direct hereditary line. And this makes sense, growing naturally out of samurai customs (and, indeed, non-samurai customs too) of passing down the headship of a household from father to son (or adopted, named, heir). The latter half of the Kamakura shogunate was a bit messier, but with the Ashikaga and the Tokugawa it was hereditary again. And Tokugawa Ieyasu in particular made sure to establish the precedent for hereditary succession, by retiring super early and naming his son Hidetada the next shogun. In certain important ways, (arguably) none of these people saw themselves as governing a "state" or "nation" like a President or Prime Minister. Rather, they were the top warrior within a network of warrior families, and ruled largely through feudal ties of personal loyalty - samurai were loyal to their lords, or their lords' households, through personal ties to the individual, or a history of family loyalty to the lord's family, more so than being loyal to an office (e.g. president or prime minister). |
| 上り口説 Nubui Kuduchi – Musings on the arts of Japan and beyond | |
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| Dickjutsu | Jul 5 2017, 06:44 AM Post #3 |
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An interesting comparison, I think, would be to include the Pope into European settings. Ostensibly the Japanese Emperor was of divine right and ruled the land by religious authority (divine descent). Consider Britain after the Magna Carta - ostensibly the country still owed some semblance of loyalty to the Pope as a Catholic nation (Anglicanism hadn't yet been formed for divorce purposes), but the Barons created a rough form of parliament which 'usurped' a lot of the king's authority. So you had the Pope on a religious level, the King on an authoritative level, and then Parliament (technically the 'Great Council') which had more nominal authority. Similarly on a much older scale...Sparta. Sparta was ruled by a king (technically two kings, if I recall) but they ultimately answered to the Spartan council (Gerousia and Emphors). Likewise they had spiritual rulership in the form of the Delphi Oracle whose poetic riddles could give some control over the state. By late antiquity the council of the Gerousia and Emphors held true authority, while the Kings and Oracle were almost powerless for the most part. |
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Richard C. Shaffer Author of Escort Check out Samurai Gaiden on Youtube! | |
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| Sam | Jul 5 2017, 08:29 AM Post #4 |
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Artisan
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Of course! That made me realize a much better example than Britain: the Holy Roman Empire. If I remember correctly the emperor actually traveled to Rome to be crowned by the pope (kind of like daimyo going to Kyoto). Thanks! |
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| Toranosuke | Jul 7 2017, 01:45 AM Post #5 |
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Tosa no kami
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Actually, that reminds me - I just recently read an article that described the rituals for Princes of the various principalities to declare their loyalty to the Holy Roman Emperor and be re-affirmed in their titles & holdings. I don't know what these rituals looked like in England or France or elsewhere, but in the Holy Roman Empire, they actually resemble Tokugawa rituals fairly strongly in the overall, general, shape of the rituals. In the HRE, Princes processed to the town square in grand processions, displaying their power and wealth to the general popular audience - and competed with one another to show off their rank/power. After arriving at the town square where the Emperor had set up some sort of pavilion or platform, they kneeled before the Emperor, said some formal ritual words of swearing loyalty, bowed X number of times, offered gifts to the Emperor, and were formally invested in their titles/lands by the Emperor, who also gave them a sword as part of the symbolism of the relationship (giving up a part of his power, entrusting the Prince to be one of his people, loyal to the Empire). And they did this all in succession, one Prince after another. In Tokugawa Japan, daimyo processed through the streets in grand processions, displaying their power and wealth to the people, as they made their way to Edo castle. Once inside the castle, they met with the shogun in small groups, in an audience hall (either the Shiroshoin or Kuroshoin or Ôhiroma), and when called forward, one by one, they bowed a certain number of times, offered gifts to the shogun (including a sword - a show of loyalty, that they are giving of their power to the lord, the shogun), and were re-affirmed in their lands. There are, of course, significant differences, and I am no expert on the Holy Roman Empire. But, just based on what I read in that one article on the HRE, as compared to what I've read in various books on sankin kotai, as well as some primary sources of Tokugawa ritual, there do seem to be parallels... |
| 上り口説 Nubui Kuduchi – Musings on the arts of Japan and beyond | |
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| Sam | Jul 7 2017, 07:29 AM Post #6 |
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Artisan
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Thank you Travis, what was the the HRE paper you were referring to? |
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| Condottiero Magno | Jul 7 2017, 09:06 AM Post #7 |
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Innkeeper
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The Holy Roman Empire is a rather complicated subject depending on the era... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_election From the 13th Century at least, the emperor was first elected Rex Romanorum and then traveled with an entourage to Rome, to be crowned Imperator Augustus Romanorum by the pope and sometimes residing in Italy for years, as they had to deal with local factions. Frederick III was the last to do this and his son Maximilian, due to complications couldn't make it to Rome, so with papal consent became the first Electus Romanorum Imperator and Rex Germaniae or King of the Germans, not King of Germany. Until the mid 1400s, the authentic Roman Emperors still resided in The City, controlling over what was left of Rhomania, with modified rituals going back to the Dominate... The regalia and some of the rituals of the HRE were based off the court in Constantinople, with the exception of Caesaropapism. |
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| Sam | Jul 7 2017, 09:32 AM Post #8 |
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Artisan
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Thanks Condottiero Magno. That actually makes it more like Japan in certain ways. Unfortunately I don't know much about the Holy Roman Empire, but if someone is serious about the topic then Peter H. Wilson's "Heart of Europe: A History of the Holy Roman Empire" seems like a good place to start (Wilson is the Chichele Professor of the History of War at Oxford and the book, which is more than a thousand pages long, is published by Harvard University Press so this serious scholarly work). I got to know this book through Tyler Cowen (an economist who blogs at Marginal Revolution) here is his recommendation: The passage Cowen quotes also makes one think of the various time periods in Japanese history. |
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| Toranosuke | Jul 8 2017, 11:46 AM Post #9 |
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Tosa no kami
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Sorry - I had to go find the citation over again... here it is: Barbara Stollberg-Rilinger, "Much Ado About Nothing? Rituals of Politics in Early Modern Europe and Today." Bulletin of the German Historical Institute, no. 48. https://www.ghi-dc.org/publications/ghi-bulletin/issue-48-spring-2011.html |
| 上り口説 Nubui Kuduchi – Musings on the arts of Japan and beyond | |
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9:01 AM Jul 11